Nov 12, 2013 update: "Where are my crumpets?"

[Jochi]

Gee, nobody pointing out that she's doing to him exactly what he did to her, forcing him to do what he fervently does not want to do, just because it's what SHE wants? The only differences are that she's using his feelings for her and his sense of pride and honor in keeping his word instead of a magic compulsion device, and the fact that he did it in panic and desperation first, where she's doing it calmly, premeditatedly and in retaliation/revenge. I guess payback IS a bitch.

[Nerre]

She just does not look like she is testing him. It is more likely at least accordint to her face that she has not found it out, but maybe she will.

@Jochi: Do you mean Goblinslayer with "he"? I know it was not fair from her, but I would not compare it to what Goblinslayer did to her. Or are you talking about Minmax grabbing the leash? In this case, I would agree, although she is much smarter than him and might have had other options. He was desperate back then, she now is not.

[Unlucky-for-Some]

Yeah I think he is referring to MinMax here and not Goblinslayer.

[Gryphonic]

Thunt took great pains to make MinMax's left hand bleed. That hand is carefully kept off-panel (and presumably outside Kin's field of perception). MM will drink the tea, wave goodbye with his left hand, Kin will notice the blood and now or later put two and two (or two and oblivion) together.

I saw that too and am hopeful she will notice it, even if she does not connect the dots before he ports out.

Gee, nobody pointing out that she's doing to him exactly what he did to her, forcing him to do what he fervently does not want to do, just because it's what SHE wants? The only differences are that she's using his feelings for her and his sense of pride and honor in keeping his word instead of a magic compulsion device, and the fact that he did it in panic and desperation first, where she's doing it calmly, premeditatedly and in retaliation/revenge. I guess payback IS a bitch.

I disagree. She's not forcing him to do anything, she's left him a choice: go or stay. Taking someone at their word does not magically compel them to keep it, in their world or ours. I see this as her re-enacting the leash scene. She wants to separate right now, and he strongly does not. Will he insist on HIS way again, or is he truly repenting and willing let HER chose her path?

I'm wondering what the Kins know of the matter. Unless Ruby has been spying off-panel like they did on Psimax in the Tower room, there's been no reaction. And I wouldn't put it past Ruby, though I would have expected her to gloat say "I told you so" to Kin alone in the tea room.
...which might have given Kin a clue, so perhaps Ruby was just intelligent enough to realize that.

[Simon]

She's forcing him not by removing his free will, but in the general sense of making the other options...undesirable.
He could disobey her, but then he's proving he's untrustworthy, he's breaking his promise and not showing her that he is sorry.
So in this situation, Minmax still has a choice, even though it's not what he wants.

[Unlucky-for-Some]

She's testing him, not forcing him. It's up to him whether or not he fails the test

[Davis8488]

It may not be force, but it's definitely coercion.

[jakesdad]

I tip my hat, so really very hard indeed, to ( was it jakesdad ? ) whoever came up with the thread title.

Why, thank you.

I hope this inspires other first-posters to come up with similarly smile-inducing titles for New Topics. Some years ago, it was quite common, with the all time winner being "GoblinSlayer learns to speak Australian." I think you can guess which comic page that was!

[Jochi]

Exactly, Davis. He coerced an action from her, in which she literally had no choice. Whether or not he was aware of the degree to which she had no choice (still not settled in canon) this was reprehensible, it was dishonorable, besides and in addition to how damaging to her it was, and how reprehensible and dishonorable it was on account of that damage. The only mitigating factor is that he was caught flat-footed by an unexpected untenable situation, and that he is being played as a character of low intelligence and wisdom. See here and the following page.
She is coercing an action from him. He does not literally have no choice, he COULD choose some other action, at the expense of his personal honor, his sense of self-worth, injuring the woman he loves further, what's left of his pride, whatever is left of her feelings for him, and anything else he holds valuable save possibly revenge against Names, if he does still value that. He COULD choose to be a pig instead of a man. He may or may not see everything that choice would cost him, he is still an idiot with a child-like simplistic view, but he sees enough to not make it. It's not betting on an inside straight, it's raising after all the cards are revealed and he KNOWS he has lost. He has nothing to gain, all he could do is lose more. It's not a choice.

[AntMac]

Gee, nobody pointing out that she's doing to him exactly what he did to her, forcing him to do what he fervently does not want to do, just because it's what SHE wants? The only differences are that she's using his feelings for her and his sense of pride and honor in keeping his word instead of a magic compulsion device, and the fact that he did it in panic and desperation first, where she's doing it calmly, premeditatedly and in retaliation/revenge. I guess payback IS a bitch.

I mean this as kindly as one thing, you are to consider, friend, but , your whole post there, is as wrong as any person has ever been in all of human history.

What is more, you have accidentally struck on wording exactly the same as the "Entitlement" reasoning that leads to violence against a loved one.

He and Forgarth made a deal with her to explore the dungeon she knew about, with her. The agreement was "You know, if you'd be willing to help me through the maze I'd gladly let you keep any other treasure that we find so long as I get the teapot". Then Forgarth asks if they could use the Teapot, and tacitly Kin agrees.

That is the sum of the agreement between them. That is the deal they struck.

Nothing in there about Kin being forced to love MinMax. Nothing in there about MinMax being FORCED to drink anything Kin gives him. Nothing in there about Kin having to put up with anyone or anything just because MinMax prefers it. Nothing in there actually, except the deal "We do the maze, you get all the treasure, I get the teapot, and then I get to "Bring it home the old fashioned way" and at that point you drink the tea so you can go do your quest, and we part".

They have reached that point, and because MinMax has ruined their relationships trust, but said sorry so as to deserve a little compassion, KINDLY, Kin has made them the tea.

She has said she wants to go away from them. She has said she wants them to drink the tea because that is an expedient way for them to go away and is what they agreed to do. If she does want this suddenly because MinMax traumatised her, it isn't payback, it is her perfectly understandably not wanting anything more to do with him.

Just because someone wants something, means nothing to anyone else. This idea you are promulgating is exactly the claim of entitlement that ( mostly male ) people use to excuse themselves when they do violence, harm loved ones.

"NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO ! ! ! I WANTED TO LOVE YOU AND YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T TRUST ME ANYMORE BECAUSE OF ONE LITTLE ACCIDENTLY PUSH WHEN I WAS UPSET . . .
SO YOU MADE ME PUNCH YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE BEING UNFAIR BY NOT TRUSTING ME ! ! ! !".

Kin doesn't trust him anymore, he did it himself, he has no right to expect anything from her but what she wants to offer.

[Nerre]

Her face says otherwise. She looks sad, like she does not want to do what she does.

Currently the other Kin (who threw away the K.E.N. necklace) does the same to our Kin than Goblinslayer did with the leash. She is forcing her to do something against her will, but looking at the psychological abuse, it is even worse than what he did, since our Kin does not even knows it happens(until she figures it out). One cannot have a free will if his mind is altered so he does not recognize the oppression happening to him. Rebellion is natural, but it has to have reason, a trigger. It seems some of her feelings are left, or subconsciously she cannot explain her feeling for him without never having had a reason to fully trust him. I really hope that might become the trigger to fight against the oblivion effect.

[Elvors]

(hope hope hope it's that she really does love him).

Of course she does.
Love doesn't mean that you are happy forever after.
Love can be a terrible thing - it makes you want to be with the beloved one, even if that's impossible due to one's own trauma.

(Other forms of impossiblity include "my love is a sociopath", "my love would turn me into an emotional cripple", "I'm forced to move to another state", "family/society/whatever prohibits the relationship". The world is full or important reasons to not follow your love, and the conflict between such a love and those important reasons has sparked tons of literature - mostly assuming the ideal of "love conquers all", which, sadly, does not hold in practice, which is why "love conquers all" is such a popular theme.)

[Tofu]

Goblinslayer learns to speak Australian - classic!

[Brings Cupcakes]

Gee, nobody pointing out that she's doing to him exactly what he did to her, forcing him to do what he fervently does not want to do, just because it's what SHE wants? The only differences are that she's using his feelings for her and his sense of pride and honor in keeping his word instead of a magic compulsion device, and the fact that he did it in panic and desperation first, where she's doing it calmly, premeditatedly and in retaliation/revenge. I guess payback IS a bitch.

I mean this as kindly as one thing, you are to consider, friend, but , your whole post there, is as wrong as any person has ever been in all of human history.

What is more, you have accidentally struck on wording exactly the same as the "Entitlement" reasoning that leads to violence against a loved one.

Yes. Thank you, AntMac. The idea that Minmax has a right to demand or even expect anything from Kin at this point is absurd. The idea that Kin (or anyone else for that matter) does not have the right to walk away at any point is outrageous.

[Jochi]

I mean this as kindly as one thing, you are to consider, friend, but , your whole post there, is as wrong as any person has ever been in all of human history.

What is more, you have accidentally struck on wording exactly the same as the "Entitlement" reasoning that leads to violence against a loved one.

He and Forgarth made a deal with her to explore the dungeon she knew about, with her. The agreement was "You know, if you'd be willing to help me through the maze I'd gladly let you keep any other treasure that we find so long as I get the teapot". Then Forgarth asks if they could use the Teapot, and tacitly Kin agrees.

That is the sum of the agreement between them. That is the deal they struck.

Nothing in there about Kin being forced to love MinMax. Nothing in there about MinMax being FORCED to drink anything Kin gives him. Nothing in there about Kin having to put up with anyone or anything just because MinMax prefers it. Nothing in there actually, except the deal "We do the maze, you get all the treasure, I get the teapot, and then I get to "Bring it home the old fashioned way" and at that point you drink the tea so you can go do your quest, and we part".

They have reached that point, and because MinMax has ruined their relationships trust, but said sorry so as to deserve a little compassion, KINDLY, Kin has made them the tea.

She has said she wants to go away from them. She has said she wants them to drink the tea because that is an expedient way for them to go away and is what they agreed to do. If she does want this suddenly because MinMax traumatised her, it isn't payback, it is her perfectly understandably not wanting anything more to do with him.

Just because someone wants something, means nothing to anyone else. This idea you are promulgating is exactly the claim of entitlement that ( mostly male ) people use to excuse themselves when they do violence, harm loved ones.

"NOW LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO ! ! ! I WANTED TO LOVE YOU AND YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T TRUST ME ANYMORE BECAUSE OF ONE LITTLE ACCIDENTLY PUSH WHEN I WAS UPSET . . .
SO YOU MADE ME PUNCH YOU BECAUSE YOU WERE BEING UNFAIR BY NOT TRUSTING ME ! ! ! !".

Kin doesn't trust him anymore, he did it himself, he has no right to expect anything from her but what she wants to offer.

I assume you are exaggerating for effect in that first line. What I posted doesn't even come close to, for instance, the blog about the "rape culture" of Firefly recently linked here. Knowing what you have said recently about the evils of anyone forcing actions on another, I thought it not impossible you would agree with me, certainly did not expect to be put somewhere below "Mein Kampf" or Orson Scott Card's opinions on gay marriage.

I would venture to say that the ORIGINAL deal by which the three started the crawl is all but moot at this point. Then they were co-travellers and companions of circumstance, now they are friends, compatriots, and two of them are, in the classic sense, lovers. Yes, Minmax and Forgath still owe Kin escort out of the Maze if not all the way to her home as part of the bargain, but she has the right to rescind and forgive that debt, and is doing so. That doesn't force any action on Minmax.

I've already stated that what Minmax did is inexcusable. I see no point in arguing whether it was less or more heinous than GS or Ruby's actions. All are inexcusable -- with GS possibly taking the lead because it was also sadistic -- neither of the other were -- and chronic -- both the others were momentary one-time actions. GS and Ruby behaved as though they had a 'right' to do what they did, Minmax acted in desperation without considering his actions. Still inexcusable. No argument.

She has the right to break contact off if she wants, temporarily or permanently AS she wants. That forces no action on Minmax's part, if SHE is the one who leaves. Forcing HIM to leave when he doesn't want to DOES force an action on his part. This forcing is a direct result of his exerting force on her earlier, hence it is payback. Payback is not always unjustified. In fact, if it is not excessive, it is often quite justified, and this probably is. That doesn't change the nature of the situation.

Nothing in what I said justifies what Minmax did, or for that matter justifies him staying in the Maze now. He has only one honorable path, and it is one of ultimate self-sacrifice, more so than stepping in an oblivion hole would be -- which would NOT be honorable, as it would further damage Kin.

Nothing in what I said justifies using violence on anyone. There IS only one justification for violence, and that is to curb or prevent violence. Which is why I do not understand the logic behind executing someone who killed his parents to hurry an inheritance, but allowing an incurably violently insane person to live. The first is unlikely to ever repeat his actions -- he's out of parents, the second is virtually sure to, given the opportunity. But that's another issue entirely. I did not and DO not argue for any kind of justification for committing violence for any reason other than stopping a violent person.

If Kin wants to break off contact with Minmax, she has the right to LEAVE. The fact that she vowed to never run away again may prevent that -- but keeping that vow is her CHOICE and isn't Minmax's responsibility. Forcing Minmax to leave may be justified, but that doesn't stop it from being coercion. She is using neither magical compulsion or threat of (physical) violence, but she IS forcing an action on HIM, not taking an action herself.

[Brings Cupcakes]

If Kin wants to break off contact with Minmax, she has the right to LEAVE. The fact that she vowed to never run away again may prevent that -- but keeping that vow is her CHOICE and isn't Minmax's responsibility. Forcing Minmax to leave may be justified, but that doesn't stop it from being coercion. She is using neither magical compulsion or threat of (physical) violence, but she IS forcing an action on HIM, not taking an action herself.

No, she really isn't. There's no force involved here; he has a choice. The choice may not be palatable, but it exists. He asked her what he could do to prove that he's sorry, and she told him. The next move is up to him.

[Simon]

You have to understand that when some people are using the word 'force' here, they don't mean in the literal 'no free will' sense. Minmax doesn't want to drink the tea, and has asked Kin if there is anything else he could do. She said drink the tea.
There is no way for Minmax to do as Kin says and also not drink the tea. If he wants to keep his promise, then he is forced to drink the tea.
You cannot say that if he wants to keep his promise, he doesn't have to drink the tea, because that doesn't make sense. Although she never physically imposed her will upon him, nor magically removed his free will, she answered him in such a way that if he wishes to keep his promise, he's forced to comply.

But if it makes you feel better, mentally substitute 'force' with 'coerce' or some other synonym. It's similar to how people use the word 'theory' when they mean 'hypothesis'. Or when people say 'you're letting the cold in' when they mean 'you're letting heat energy out' or something like that. It may not be 'technically' correct, but you can still understand their meaning.

[Jochi]

There's no force involved here; he has a choice. The choice may not be palatable, but it exists. He asked her what he could do to prove that he's sorry, and she told him. The next move is up to him.

I said above he doesn't LITERALLY have not choice, like Kin didn't, he CAN choose to be a pig instead of a man. But that's not a choice. I said making that choice increases his loss and gets him nothing.
If he "chooses" to drink the tea, he can choose the high road "I said I would do whatever you ask, and I will. Because I love you and because you deserve better than I can give you right now." He can choose the low road "Really? I thought what we had meant more to you than this. Fine!" Either way, drinks and fade out. High road gains him something -- a chance Kin will eventually change her mind and find him. Low road might feel better right now -- my bet is it wouldn't -- but it costs him more and preserves very little.
If he chooses to not drink, he is foresworn, proven false. He has shown that in fact Kin's feelings mean less to him than his own, and he hurts her again. And he loses everything of value to him. All chance of a reconciliation is gone; he is diminished even further in her eyes and in his own; he hurts her even more, and he's there to see it.
Yes, it is technically possible for him to do this. He COULD use his +7 vs (humans while he holds it) axe to strike his own head off. He COULD run back to the hole in the floor where they climbed away from the zombies and seek out more alts to fight. He COULD do anything, but he only has one "choice" that preserves any of his sense of self-worth remaining, or any chance of any worth he has in Kin's eyes.
He brought it on himself. He deserves exile (to his home reality, but away from his love). But a difference that makes no difference is no difference, and a choice between something, however small, and nothing isn't a choice.
And to whoever speculated that the cup might just hold hot water, that Kin might have lied to test Minmax's sincerity -- I'm just glad MM made the promise AFTER Kin brought the mugs out, so she couldn't have planned that. If that were the case, if she lied to him to test him in that manner, then SHE would be the one who cheapened whatever they have left. She'd be playing games with his love AND his self-respect. However much she felt like she needed that reassurance, that would be abuse. Ever watch "A Knight's Tale"? "If you love me, you will lose this tournament." "Oh, now that you are so far behind, if you love me, you will win this tournament after all." He should have returned her favor and told her to find another boy-toy.

[Brings Cupcakes]

That's all fine and good, Jochi, but your assertion was that Kin was doing to Minmax exactly what he did to her. Which is false.

@Simon: I didn't say anything about Minmax keeping his promise. Obviously his choice is now between drinking the tea and breaking his promise. And yes, I'm aware of the different ways people use the word "force". What I object to is the false equivalence being drawn between Kin's actions and Minmax's.

[Jochi]

That's all fine and good, Jochi, but your assertion was that Kin was doing to Minmax exactly what he did to her. Which is false.

Ah. I erred in using the word "exactly". Indeed, I did. I did point out a few differences, such as the fact that his control of her was via irresistible magic compulsion, and an act of desperation by someone of limited intellect and little forethought; where hers was by coercion through his guilt and desire to keep some smattering of self-esteem and hope for reconciliation, and a considered action by someone of high intellect and proven manipulative ability. And that does put the lie to the word 'exactly'. You are correct.
But there are similarities. However much of it is retaliation and how much self-protection, Kin now has secure hold of Minmax's leash and he will go where she wills. Ruby was not saying that the KEN necklace controlled JadeKin through magical compulsion, either. And I think most of us were surprised by how right she turned out to be. I know *I* was. Minmax's leash is not physical and not magical, but it is real.
I wasn't saying their actions were morally equivalent, either. Kin is still the victim here, now three times over. Minmax is a malefactor receiving justice.
And thus, I concede this bout. The field is yours.

[Veya]

I am just worried with the possibility of MinMax suiciding in hope for a reset at this point, he does have a brand new axe that gives him +7 against his own race(and he sorta is his own race), so it shouldn't be too hard...

[Gryphonic]

He and Forgarth made a deal with her to explore the dungeon she knew about, with her. The agreement was "You know, if you'd be willing to help me through the maze I'd gladly let you keep any other treasure that we find so long as I get the teapot". Then Forgarth asks if they could use the Teapot, and tacitly Kin agrees.

That is the sum of the agreement between them. That is the deal they struck.

Nothing in there about Kin being forced to love MinMax. Nothing in there about MinMax being FORCED to drink anything Kin gives him. Nothing in there about Kin having to put up with anyone or anything just because MinMax prefers it. Nothing in there actually, except the deal "We do the maze, you get all the treasure, I get the teapot, and then I get to "Bring it home the old fashioned way" and at that point you drink the tea so you can go do your quest, and we part".

I would venture to say that the ORIGINAL deal by which the three started the crawl is all but moot at this point. Then they were co-travellers and companions of circumstance, now they are friends, compatriots, and two of them are, in the classic sense, lovers. Yes, Minmax and Forgath still owe Kin escort out of the Maze if not all the way to her home as part of the bargain, but she has the right to rescind and forgive that debt, and is doing so. That doesn't force any action on Minmax.
......
She has the right to break contact off if she wants, temporarily or permanently AS she wants. That forces no action on Minmax's part, if SHE is the one who leaves. Forcing HIM to leave when he doesn't want to DOES force an action on his part. This forcing is a direct result of his exerting force on her earlier, hence it is payback. Payback is not always unjustified. In fact, if it is not excessive, it is often quite justified, and this probably is. That doesn't change the nature of the situation.
......
If Kin wants to break off contact with Minmax, she has the right to LEAVE. The fact that she vowed to never run away again may prevent that -- but keeping that vow is her CHOICE and isn't Minmax's responsibility. Forcing Minmax to leave may be justified, but that doesn't stop it from being coercion. She is using neither magical compulsion or threat of (physical) violence, but she IS forcing an action on HIM, not taking an action herself.

Shortened because the length of quotes within quotes would be excessive.

@ Jochi: I refer you to http://www.goblinscomic.org/10172013/. They did not consider their original agreement moot. Their feelings about their relationsip had, but they were only just starting to ask each other if they wanted to change their plans.

In your list of semi-facetious things he COULD do just to prove he has a free choice, he could chose to remain for another reset. He and Forgath would just run it on their own as she traveled with the Kinship. It would be an attempt to compromise 'going away' with 'staying near Kin' and hoping to meet her again. I don't think she'd like that choice either, but he could handle it that way.

keeping that vow is her CHOICE and isn't Minmax's responsibility.

That is just as true the other way around, right now.

And lastly; mechanically, Kin can't be the one who leaves. Not in the sense of her being the one to port out, which is what it sounded like you were suggesting. She always knew that she had to take the teapot home the long way. Now that she can't use the circle she has to remain and start the Maze over again to complete her primary goal, which she hasn't wavered from. Even when the two of them were talking about continuing their relationship after the Maze, she asked him to join her quest. (Technically it's Minmax's fault that she can't take the red circle out as intended, but since he saved them in the process I don't think she's holding that against him.)

The only way I think Kin can leave now would be if the Kinship found a way to reactivate the red circle with the psionic gears. In which case I think Kin would take the short route home, to drop off the teapot. Why do the Yuan-ti want that thing so much anyway??

[Unlucky-for-Some]

I assumed that the Teapot was an artifact of historical significance to them - although it would make a pretty awesome tool for a team of assassins

[Simon_Jester]

The teapot is actually really useful for a settled community of any kind. It's only slightly useful for adventurers because it's a one-shot teleporter for them. But it's a lot more useful if you're a permanent town that uses it to send travelers out to any place you might happen to want them to go. Assassins might be the best example, but it's also good for "gee, I want to send a message to these guys who are on the other side of a vicious goblin tribe" and other routine stuff. Heck, even on perfectly mundane journeys, you can cut half the travel time just by brewing a few cups of tea.

[RedwoodElf]

The teapot is actually really useful for a settled community of any kind. It's only slightly useful for adventurers because it's a one-shot teleporter for them. But it's a lot more useful if you're a permanent town that uses it to send travelers out to any place you might happen to want them to go. Assassins might be the best example, but it's also good for "gee, I want to send a message to these guys who are on the other side of a vicious goblin tribe" and other routine stuff. Heck, even on perfectly mundane journeys, you can cut half the travel time just by brewing a few cups of tea.

The limitation being that you can't teleport to a PLACE, only a PERSON. So you have to know someone to go to them, though it would, indeed, make an excellent means of helping an ally or sneaking into a heavily guarded assassination target's bedroom.