22nd October, 2013 - Don't go!

[willpell]

Honestly, this is reminding me of Allecto (the author of "A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly" - honestly, it must be seen to be believed).

Good grief, that was spectacular in its wrongness. The woman who wrote that article obviously has deep mental and emotional problems, not to mention overwhelming ignorance (seriously, you think military members calling each other "sir" is a gender issue?). If she's really that fragile, I'm surprised she doesn't sue traffic cops for trying to "bully" her out of the street when the light changes color. She really needs to be put in some sort of assisted-living home and protected from all contact with pop culture, as it's clearly too scary for her to be able to handle it.

[Sessine]

*digs into the landscape, throws up parapet, lays out barbed wire*

*avoids the barbed wire and goes the other way*

I don't disagree with you at all about the societal problems you're alluding to.

But, as a woman, I don't see MinMax as any sort of vicious controlling dominator. To me, the disparity in strength has nothing to do with the story at this point. He's not using his strength! He has never used it around Kin except to help her. He is not a bully. I am convinced he didn't know what the leash did. He reached for it because he thought it would be a smaller action than grabbing her sleeve. I predict the next thing he's going to do is drop the leash as if it's scalding him.

Context matters. Intentions matter. I see him as a naive and sweet-natured lunkhead. That's how Kin sees him, too -- or has, until this very second. I am very sad about his catastrophic blunder, but to me, that's all it is: a stupid blunder.

Well, I absolutely agree about him not being vicious. But isn't his attitude to Forgarth with the derogatory remarks and the rest of his overtly "male" stuff shorthand for dominating?. Alpha jock bullying.
And the male to female dichotomy is all about disparities in strength, assumed, and imposed, and real. As I pointed out, if he did grasp a male who said "I am walking away" the entire subtext would be different.
The implication with a him doing it to a her is that he is ENTITLED to insist that she stop and listen to him.

The leash is a red herring. Let us take it out of consideration with its magic. He DID mean to force her against her will. If he had caught her arm instead, it is the same thing. A man who will reason or even only by impulse his way to doing it is a problem.

And it is a cool thing you bring up about his being naive and a lunkhead. He is, isn't he. He is only a careless danger to her, he didn't intend to become someone she ought never to have something more to do with. That makes it a double tragedy, right. But I have no real worry about his difficulties, because he ought to know his fault is worse than his difficulties.

MinMax and Forgath have a male-peer relationship. They insult each other all the time. Forgath plays mean little tricks on him. But they look out for each other, too. When push comes to zombie-fight, they're a team. I don't think there's any bullying involved, unless you want to say Forgath sometimes bullies MM about being stupid. If there's an alpha in that relationship, it's Forgath.

I know from direct lifelong experience that not all male-female relationships are about disparities in strength. Some are, that's true. Too many, indeed, because even one is too many. All the same, they do not by any means encompass the entirety of what is. If that's what you have run into you have my deepest sympathy, but I am here to tell you that you are over-generalizing; both men and women are first and foremost people. We have far more in common with the opposite sex than we have differences.

[Sutremaine]

Never seen Firefly, but I did watch the Buffy / Spike trainwreck unfold.

[Simon]

I just had a thought, not sure if it's entirely relevant, but wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Forgath's player is female?

Edit: Never mind, found it. Here's that comic, Minmax mentions it at the end.

[RedwoodElf]

Long-time lurker, first time poster, just in here to say that, though who can say if Minmax himself will realize it, he's now in the perfect position to give Kin a Gargoyles-inpsired order that has the possibility of undoing all the damage grabbing Kin's leash might have done:

► Show Spoiler

"I order you, from this moment on, to never obey any order you don't want to, regardless of who is holding the leash."

That was countering a spell, however, not a cursed item. Since a cursed item is self contained and self-renewing, any new orders would override previous orders, so probably wouldn't work.

Honestly, this is reminding me of Allecto (the author of "A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly" - honestly, it must be seen to be believed).

Good grief, that was spectacular in its wrongness. The woman who wrote that article obviously has deep mental and emotional problems, not to mention overwhelming ignorance (seriously, you think military members calling each other "sir" is a gender issue?). If she's really that fragile, I'm surprised she doesn't sue traffic cops for trying to "bully" her out of the street when the light changes color. She really needs to be put in some sort of assisted-living home and protected from all contact with pop culture, as it's clearly too scary for her to be able to handle it.

yeah, the author of that blog is clearly one of those brainwashed soul-wounded reactionaries who have been so indoctrinated into the "Men are evil and oppress women" mantra that they see a subordinate calling their commanding officer "Sir" somehow a smear on women. There is a sick mind there that may be damaged beyond all repair, I'm afraid.

[Davis8488]

Based on my experience, I would imagine Minmax felt rather helpless as Kin turned away. Would I have tried to restrain her, no, but I like to believe I have a wisdom rating higher than 1.

It is possible to grab a person's arm lightly, and not restrain them, and that I would excuse, however grabbing her leash with both hands to restrain her, even if he didn't know it's effects, is inexcusable. I would imagine his tears are because he can feel her anguish and knows that he caused it.

For those who ask why Thunt denies us a happy ending I posit this. Thunt has said the story is far from over, and as Orson Wells said "If you want a happy ending, that depends, of course, on where you stop your story." I forget the words, but Tolkien explained Thunt's motive thus: good times aren't as interesting as trouble is.

[AntMac]

Maybe I've misinterpreted your position, but it looks like you don't want to give MM a chance of redemption and would gladly lock him up for a couple of years. He may not deserve Kin atm being a person he is, but don't you think he's got potential to become a better one? I don't say Kin should forgive him immediately - the damage is too high - but someday he'll be worse forgiving if he'll stay on a right path, won't he?

PS: Just to make it clear. MM is on my avatar not because he's awesome;). The pointing finger reminded me of the Uncle Sam poster, so I took this picture.

Hey, if I knew how to do avatars I might have one of the clown myself probably ( Nah, actually it would be of one of the poor fellas that fell just outside the gates of Brassmoon, an inch from freedom, Pathos being the true feeling of human art imho ) I do like him a lot. I think he means sort of well, he did grow like you say, and the brthdee party itself was pretty special, real proof that in there somewhere is an uneducated person whose BASIC SPIRIT is one that isn't irredeemable.
And if someone took him under their philosophic wing to explain why his basic attitude to others that so easily slips into degrading them and making them lesser is wrong and has to change. . . and he was prepared to listen, prepared to change . . . well that is a way of washing yourself free of the stain of guilt in anyone's book, right?.

But he can never deserve Kin again, imo, and it is sickeningly wrong of him to want to right now. How could she trust him? he has failed her trust NOW, she should let him get closer? Why? For whose good? Not hers, that must be clear. Change doesn't happen over night, and it NEVER happens when people are protected from the consequences of their actions. He must leave her alone, like she asked him to, and was proven within minutes to be right asking him to too.

The only MinMax who could deserve her forgiveness is one who acknowledges without being told that he doesn't actually deserve it at present, and leaves her alone in peace.

Her safety can't be trusted to him, as he is at the moment, he wants an obedient inferior, not an equal, he wants someone he can over-ride the wishes of with a word or a grasp. Maybe not on a verbal level, but we saw his actions, he really thinks at an instinctive level* he ought to be able to tell her to stay or go even just seconds after she says "I want to leave now".

*And most people who find themselves beating or degrading a loved one do it on impulse, on emotion, they don't wake up and think "I will beat the arguments outta that bitch after lunch" they just find themselves doing it because it is IN THEIR NATURE as a violent person. Kin has had more of the company of a violent person than anyone deserves, long before MinMax decided he likes her.

I am sorry as anything for him, because I think he does mean well consciously, but he has to go. If he loves her and not just the idea of her but HER as a person of her own rights, he has to admit he failed her and leave her alone now.

[AntMac]

[
I'm not sure where the Alpha Scotsman comes into it, is that Forgath with a stereotypical accent?

I treat people the same, male or female, no matter how you argue I suspect you'll fail to get me to change my policy of equality.

Jock as in Sportsman.

If we all treat people the same one day, it will be a different world and we won't have all the various discriminations people suffer. And if people think they are treating everyone the same now, but their actions or lack of actions actually support discrimination . . .

As an example, say some particular person banks with a company that refuses to allow equal numbers of one of the genders or one of the religions or one of the races onto their board of directors . . . Should we insist they change their bank?. No, of course not.

Would it be alright though if, seeing them say "My goodness, what a lot of waffle about a pointless topic, how does it matter if the bank has equal numbers of X and Y on their board" I was to get a trifle over excited and point out in detail how that discrimination leads to the customers who are Ys not being properly served by the Banks organisation, and being discriminated against?.


And no, obviously the strong woman doesn't get a pass to bully because she is female-but-strong, nor does a weak one. However, if you don't see that the actual experienced problem in the real world is male on female violence and most importantly, the perceptions ingrained by our culture of the RIGHTNESS of male on female violence, I don't know what to say to you.

Anyway, edit to say, I am done arguing against people forgiving MinMax ( just because they like the sap, it seems ) for hearing someone he cares for saying the words I want to go now" and reacting by grabbing a line tied around her throat and saying "No".

If people will forgive that, they will forgive anything. We need to educate ourselves out of this place where it is natural to some members of our society to forgive men using nooses to restrain their loved ones.

[raaabr]

On a more light-hearted note, there's a potential brick joke here.

Here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/02072012/ , Kin states that magic artifacts like the sword tend to have countermeasures against being destroyed.

Well, dropping a teapot and cups on the ground would typically shatter them, even if they were made from Jade. I guess that means that it also has countermeasures, huh?

[Maur]

Also, what are you trying to say with that mature/immature part of your post? That i am immature? Can you please elaborate, i am genuinely puzzled.

Well, I won't quibble or prevaricate, I was implying your expressed opinion made me think, instantly, that you have a lot of growing and maturing to do.
Now, saying that could be taken as a derogatory criticism, but, you know that I in my turn once was the same person who had some maturing to do. We know this of people, they start out without experience and some people never really grow any. So observing that you believe it of someone's expressed opinion is fair game, and not of necessity any kind of insult.
And I did coach it only in the framework of saying that particular statement made me draw that particular conclusion, I hope I went on to treat all your other opinions with sufficient respect* that you could see I wasn't dismissing everything you said as "A young person talking".

I probably should have restrained myself to saying "That is an immature statement" and then carrying on to let you know why I thought that. I didn't mean any personal condemnation though, and I am sincerely sorry if you felt it that way mate.

* I mean, I completely disagree with you, but I respect that you honestly hold that opinion.

It is okay, i wasnt offended or anything. I was (and still am! - you havent really touched my question) more genuinely curious why do you think so, since i am not sure how did you came to that conclusion.

(to elaborate, i could not be offended by that. I do not think maturity is a value that is any more desirable that, for example, honor - because of its historical and contemporary connotations)

[Maur]

Wait. Isn't this whole "You must not lay a hand upon a woman" thing exactly what feminists have been fighting against, because it makes them look like fine china dolls that are too delicate to work or take risks? Kin can take a punch - she can even take being nailed to the wall by her neck. Grabbing her arm's nothing.

TL;DR: the Troubles were not WWII, Flicking someone's ear is not punching them, and grabbing Kin's arm is neither rape, not should it be treated as such.

Well, that (and the gender essentialism) is why i said AntMac reasoning strike me as sexist.

Really? I'm waiting until Thunt weighs in himself

Wait, isnt Thunt still hiding from the angry internet mob?

And no, obviously the strong woman doesn't get a pass to bully because she is female-but-strong, nor does a weak one. However, if you don't see that the actual experienced problem in the real world is male on female violence and most importantly, the perceptions ingrained by our culture of the RIGHTNESS of male on female violence, I don't know what to say to you.

Actually, domestic violence is gender neutral.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/

And male-on-female violence is the least accepted, after male-on-male, female-on-male and female-on-female (every one of them having their own idiosyncracies)

... we really are getting OT here.

[Glemp]

Hey, if I knew how to do avatars I might have one of the clown myself probably ( Nah, actually it would be of one of the poor fellas that fell just outside the gates of Brassmoon, an inch from freedom, Pathos being the true feeling of human art imho )

You're in luck. And since we're talking about Kin...

► Show Spoiler

[louisadkins]

(First time posting, here.)

My take on what has happened.

When Ruby obliterated the birthday necklace, it set off a chain reaction that wiped out not only salient parts of the Kin/MM relationship, but also notable parts of MM character development. Without the necklace gift, he never really learned the "not all MHumanoids are Monsters" rule. He also would not necessarily have been informed by K about some of the atrocities that occurred at Dellyn's hand. I honestly do not know if the character, at this point, knows how bad of an idea it was to grab the leash.

Someone mentioned that the leash does not allow the one wearing it to hurt the one holding it. I would not think it would be a stretch to say this could also be true on an emotional level.. the leash might be showing K how MM feels about her - especially with the "stop and listen" command.

It's still a clusterfrick but it could be a recoverable clusterfrick.. and I really would like to see this relationship work without year(s) of lead-up drama.

The idea of MM using Oblivious to remove the collar from Ken and putting it on himself to show her what his true feelings are .. is an interesting idea. It just might work.
the idea of dropping the leash down an oblivion hole is scary; there is no telling where things would be if K hadn't been under the control of the leash until she met MM and F.

[Simon]

The way I see it, there's a couple main points (well, there are lots of points but the topic seems to keep coming back to discussing only Minmax here) about minmax:
A- Whether grabbing the leash was wrong, or not
B- Whether he intends to subjugate Kin, or whether it was an accident (or some variation)
C- Whether Minmax is evil, or whether he's innocent

For the A, I don't really think he should have grabbed the leash. But that doesn't mean that for B he intended to impose his will on her, and for C it does not mean he's evil.
And it isn't a clean-cut, black and white scenario. If you believe this is supposed to represent real life (like a lot of good storys and such sometimes do) then you have to understand that things are sometimes 'grey' in real life. Obviously people are entitled to their opinion, but from what we've seen in the comic so far, I find it hard to say he's at the extreme 'bad' end of this scale.

----

@louisadkins
I agree about the oblivionating the collar thing. I'm not sure who said this before, but someone suggested that it would be a terrible thing. Imagine what it would do to Kin's mind if she 'willingly'* stayed with the goblinslayer.

*as in, not compelled by the collar.

[LarsenSan]

"... and love will fuel hate".

Yeah, that last panel with Kin shows her with eyes full of hate.

@louisadkins
I agree about the oblivionating the collar thing. I'm not sure who said this before, but someone suggested that it would be a terrible thing. Imagine what it would do to Kin's mind if she 'willingly'* stayed with the goblinslayer.

*as in, not compelled by the collar.

Yes, I thought of the same. Kin would feel ashamed of herself, she'd think the only reason she didn't fight back is because, deep inside, she enjoyed it, she's a depraved xenophiliac masochist who enjoys being raped and tortured. And if she thinks that is her "true self"... she could end asking MinMax for a similar trait, resulting in MM being completely repulsed by her new self... or worse: she'd be angry at MM for killing her beloved master...


DAMN! I don't think there's any hope left for our favourite couple.

[RedwoodElf]

DAMN! I don't think there's any hope left for our favourite couple.

One possible solution:

► Show Spoiler

Minmax: What? Kin, why are you crying like that? You can tell me...
Kin: The collar...it's cursed, it forces me to obey whoever holds the leash.
Minmax: What? Why didn't you tell me? That's how Dellyn kept you all that time?
Kin: Yes. It also forces me into a submissive state where I can take no violent actions against whoever holds the leash.
Minmax (Pulls out the Kinslayer axe): Monstrous! This ends NOW!
Kin: But the Collar is a cursed item you can't...(Minmax slices the leash off the collar) damage...it?
Minmax: I just remembered...I forgot to give you a present at your birthday party. Here. (Hands Kin the severed leash)
Kin: Minmax...you...I...free? (Goes into "deliriously happy mode) YOU SET ME FREE! (Leaps into his arms and kisses him)

[Drakonim]

DAMN! I don't think there's any hope left for our favourite couple.

One possible solution:

► Show Spoiler

Minmax: What? Kin, why are you crying like that? You can tell me...
Kin: The collar...it's cursed, it forces me to obey whoever holds the leash.
Minmax: What? Why didn't you tell me? That's how Dellyn kept you all that time?
Kin: Yes. It also forces me into a submissive state where I can take no violent actions against whoever holds the leash.
Minmax (Pulls out the Kinslayer axe): Monstrous! This ends NOW!
Kin: But the Collar is a cursed item you can't...(Minmax slices the leash off the collar) damage...it?
Minmax: I just remembered...I forgot to give you a present at your birthday party. Here. (Hands Kin the severed leash)
Kin: Minmax...you...I...free? (Goes into "deliriously happy mode) YOU SET ME FREE! (Leaps into his arms and kisses him)

I'm truly hoping this is what happens but my gut tells me I shouldn't get my hopes up (knowing Thunt). However if this update goes a positive way I think you just made the perfect prediction.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

I don't think that arguing in this particular case that MinMax, in wanting for the moment to be listened to and acknowledged, isn't absolutely disregarding Kin's will as irrelevant to his own. And saying that is not to defend other instances where that sickeningly is the case.

ETA: Whoops. Left off a not in there.

[Sutremaine]

I don't think that arguing in this particular case that MinMax, in wanting for the moment to be listened to and acknowledged, is absolutely disregarding Kin's will as irrelevant to his own.

*scratches head*

I don't think that arguing in this particular case that MinMax, in wanting for the moment to be listened to and acknowledged, is absolutely disregarding Kin's will as irrelevant to his own.

I don't think that arguing in this particular case that MinMax is absolutely disregarding Kin's will as irrelevant to his own.

I don't think that arguing that MinMax is absolutely disregarding Kin's will.

And saying that is not to defend other instances where that sickeningly is the case.

Saying that it's not what? Did I break down the previous sentence incorrectly, or is it missing a chunk?

[Simon_Jester]

[TEXT OF MOD POST FOLLOWS]

Just stepping in here to remind people to keep themselves... somewhat simmered/calm? I know that this is a really upsetting update... but if you wish to really hash it out in a debate about violence... please go to Controversy about it.

A request:

Could you clarify to me whether it would be appropriate for me to reply to AntMax and explain the reasons I take exception to what he is saying about me and my views? Or should I just keep quiet and/or take it up in Controversy?

I want to follow your instructions, but I'm not entirely sure what is involved in doing so.

Maybe Thunt's waiting to spring the update until this thread devolves into "Minmax has the right to tie up Kin with the leash and make her dance to his will until she does as he says!" and "Minmax has ALREADY clearly committed rape by touching the leash and probably raped countless other women! Castrate him!"

Heh. Couldn't blame him.

Personally, since i seem to have been totally understood by several posters, and either totally misunderstood or have a total values disconnect with several others, I'm going to restrict myself to trying to... slightly clarify my own original point.

The basic problem I have with this post is that it assumes the post's reader sees Kin's actions as being equivalent to wanting to drive out and get drunk and commit suicide, being caught in a bear trap, or deciding to pee on a magical live wire.

Allow me to clarify:

Important Thing That Got Missed By Someone Last Time
My point is that it isn't wrong all the timeto physically restrain someone from making a decision.

My point is NOT to say that it is wrong for Minmaxto physically restrain Kin, specificallyfrom making thisdecision.

Minmax done messed up. He did the wrong thing, for his time and place, for what he was dealing with. He should have let Kin go.

But his action did not flow out of any 'rapist at heart' or evil impulses, in my opinion.

The reason I brought up a statement about the action in general is because AntMac got very uptight about how it is NEVER EVER RIGHT and PERSON IS PRETTY MUCH A RAPIST THEY DO THIS about the entire category of action I was talking about.

Some pages back, he basically said that... well. Here's how I interpret it, though he probably wouldn't actually behave this way, he's sort of saying he would.

If he's talking about something and decides to leave because he's heard enough, and some guy even so much as touches him on the shoulder and says "hey, don't go like this," he's going to spin around and punch them. And that attitude really confuses and disturbs me. I'm a talker, I believe in the power of conversation to resolve problems in people's lives. But it is an unending struggle just to get people to stop and take each other seriously; we're all so caught up in our own righteousness that we don't listen, don't actually stop to understand the other person's point of view.

And to me, this debate is less about gender than it is about the desire to have conversations and resolve issues peaceably and amicably.

I also take issue with the idea of Kin's not listening to Minmax's pleas to stop and listen being different to him not listening to her pleas to leave her to the brewing of the tea.

I think there's a difference because of the role of conversation and dialogue in relationships.

In the case where Minmax is pleading, Minmax is basically saying "we need to have an actual meeting of the minds about this," while Kin is saying "no, we don't."

In the case where Kin is pleading, she is basically saying "We don't need to have a meeting of the minds about this, please stop trying so it will be easier for us not to have one."

This is one of the very few areas where I'm not sure that one party in a relationship does have a right to skip away from the other to do something. Virtually anything that might pass between two people- exchange of favors, amusing limericks, kisses, collaborative fiction-writing, hobbyist activities, etc... can and should be broken off by one party or the other whenever they want. Fine.

But unless there is a serious, time-critical emergency going on, "we need to talk" is a pretty darn important situation. Relationships don't work if people can't talk to each other about their problems and figure out what to do. People make decisions they will later regret, and do so far more often, if they don't talk to each other and figure out what to do.

I do think Kin at least committed a faux pas, an act of serious bad manners if you will, by trying to cut short the conversation like that.

That doesn't mean Minmax is entitled to hit her with mind control or anything, I want to be really really clear about that. But I don't think this should reduce to "Kin did exactly what she should have done and is above criticism." She didn't do exactly what she should have done, especially not if she (by her own statement) admired MInmax greatly prior to refusing to actually talk to him about things.

So, Kin's allowed to refuse a physical conversation or any contact with Mimmax... but not until she remains in contact with him for a physical conversation. How very generous of you.

Er. Physical contact is simple- no touchy rule. If Kin wants to say "please never touch me again," she has an absolute right to make that declaration. Minmax has no right to violate that rule, unless Kin happens to reverse it at a later time, for reasons that seem valid to her.

Meanwhile, Minmax has a right to understand why the declaration has been made... which requires at least some kind of conversation.

By analogy, Kin makes the laws. Minmax has a Sixth Amendment right to understand what crime he has been charged of. At some point, someone is going to have to tell Minmax what's going on, and possibly answer his questions.



Maybe it's just my opinion, and maybe it's motivated by the fact that I've had a lot of bad experiences with people who tell me what to do, or criticize me, or even hate me... for reasons that make no sense to me, and who refuse to explain adequately what's going on.



Now, Minmax CAN waive this 'right' I think he has. He could be acting in such a terrible way that any reasonable person would know exactly what he did wrong. Grabbing Kin's leash is an example of this. If, after this, Kin says "I never want to see or hear you again, ever," Minmax has no right to ask any questions, let alone to detain Kin further, because of it.

But when Kin basically says "no, just no, shut up and stop bothering me so I can send you away," in the first place, she is at least breaching this conversational right. Minmax has a reasonable expectation that Kin will at least try to explain what's going on, rather than try to avoid talking to him until she can banish him from the universe.



Does that expectation justify what Minmax actually did? NO. Does it explain Minmax's actions in terms other than "RAPIST-WAITING-TO-HAPPEN?" I think so, yes. Because this is virtually the only kind of human interaction where a person could ever be justified in making even the most nonthreatening of physical moves- the kind where the other person is planning/trying to undertake a physical action that makes conversation impossible.

Even then, Minmax would not be justified in making a physical move at this time, under these circumstances, his action was a mistake, an ill-considered action from a person who's committed a lot of ill-considered actions. It is an action he would deserve to get shouted at and chewed out for, even without the compulsion quality of the leash. With that compulsion property, if he had any clue about it... well, he's just committed one of those acts that waives his right to even ask for an explanation, because he'd have to be a sociopath to not understand what he just did wrong.

At that point, if he had any idea what he was doing before he did it, yeah, I'll agree with the "RAPIST-IN-WAITING!" argument.

[Failsatmath]

Sooooooo...who thinks the next update is gonna be a miscellaneous page? Something that tells ya about one of the other realms in the MoM or something about one of the paladins who owned that holy-ax.

[DrinksTooMuchCoffee]

Saying that it's not what? Did I break down the previous sentence incorrectly, or is it missing a chunk?

I've fired my editor. Missed a negation in there.

[lingrem]

[mod="lingrem"]Responding to Simon_Jester and Antmac. Just using this to get their attention! But again - TAKE THE DEBATE TO CONTROVERSY as some of you are wishing to be involved in a serious debate on the topic - that's fine, but do it in Controversy, ok?[/mod]

[TEXT OF MOD POST FOLLOWS]

Just stepping in here to remind people to keep themselves... somewhat simmered/calm? I know that this is a really upsetting update... but if you wish to really hash it out in a debate about violence... please go to Controversy about it.

A request:

Could you clarify to me whether it would be appropriate for me to reply to AntMax and explain the reasons I take exception to what he is saying about me and my views? Or should I just keep quiet and/or take it up in Controversy?

I want to follow your instructions, but I'm not entirely sure what is involved in doing so.

It would be preferable if the debate was taken to Controversy at this point. It is getting very heated and when I was reading this thread... it felt like I was in Controversy. Various members are essentially repeating the same things and seem to be starting to get angry with each other.

(Lingrem, I am being as extremely careful to avoid intemperate language and tone as I possibly can. However, the story is about mental rape at this point, as you no doubt could get Thunt to agree, he after all has a character representative of his Mum as a central. And people are wrong on the internet on the subject of physical coercion BY men OF women. Strong feelings about the very subject of this particular page of the comic are generated. And I am writing more in sorrow than anger, I want these electronic-friends of mine to understand the harm these unconscious prejudices they have can be responsible for.
If we don't speak out against them being re-expressed, we are tacitly approving of the message. Some OTHER young person will read their post, see that I have not spoken against it, and (for whatever tiny value that represents) think I approve or at least don't disapprove of it.
It is how the first person has absorbed the error. No one spoke out eloquently and forcefully against whoever has made them think putting hands on women is ever allowed. THEY ARE DEFENDING MINMAX PUTTING RESTRAINING HANDS ON KIN ! ! ! ! ! !.

Mate.

I'mma gunna fight that.

So essentially, you chose to just ignore my request? The subject you are talking about IS relevant to the comic obviously, and it is more than alright to want to continue it. However. You have already made your stance very clear and are just being repetitive (you and others). Please take it to Controversy as such a serious topic will be better addressed there. No one at all will miss your point as you have in fact made it extremely clear within the thread.

[Simon]

Only a few hours left unil the update (providing all's well). The anticipation is figuratively killing me.
@Failsatmath, I want to see what happens next so I hope it's a story comic, but I'm happy for any sort of content

[Maur]

Sooooooo...who thinks the next update is gonna be a miscellaneous page? Something that tells ya about one of the other realms in the MoM or something about one of the paladins who owned that holy-ax.

Oh come on! That is... do not even try to suggest it! I am rarely that anxious about next strip, must be all that forum conversation.