The Goblins Fan Forum

It may well be a mix of it all.
The "character sheet" of the Axe of Prissan ( http://www.goblinscomic.com/08122007/ ) may be true.
It may just be that the Axe has been created by Demons in the Seventh Layer of Hell (with the ability to create a pathway between wherever it is and the SLoH), and then (unknowingly) amended to be the Axe of Prissan by the Paladins of Greyhill. (Or the portal is a straight lie, as a strong Demon should be able to create the portal once he gained sufficient power in the new Pocket of Hell.)

But the issue of the Demon needing the pathway and the Demon ripping through remains.
It may be that that refers to two different demons.
The deity, which never crossed yet, and a high-level emissary who got to the Goblins realm with the help of the Demon Deity, which actually got imPrissaned by teh Greyhill Paladins (and still is). (The AoP sheet does not refer to a Demon deity, or did I miss that? [Edit] The sheet does refer to a Pseudo Deity - which may refer to Demon Deity, or to someone so high-level that it does not make much difference. - The Pseudo may be important here to differentiate. [/Edit])

Al Dente may be purposefully omitting the fact that the deity is not imprisoned in the Axe, but a different high level demon.

The axe info sheet was info that Big Ears received IC though right, the first time it passed thru him courtesy of Sarah Caine. That means everything there could have been a lie designed to compell BE into taking and using the axe. Essentially the axe told BE just enough to cause all the rest of this to happen.

The axe info wasn't ooc stuff from thunt to us, so any/all of it could be bullshit.

That's what I was trying to get at earlier, saying the demon could have tweaked the knowledge... but I suppose it could outright fabricate the knowledge too... not like they ever actually got the Axe Identify'd. Also, it's been a long while, but I never noticed that "The War Crater" where the battle took place isn't on the map (Unless I'm just missing it)...

Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't still on the Prime Material, but just something I'd not noticed before.

Possibly. Wouldn't really enjoy that type of plot twist though.
"Yeah, remember that information I gave you about the axe? It turned out to be a lie, what a tweeeeest! Muahahaha". That's not just bad DMing, that's actively screwing over your players. Causing your players to walk away from your table and warning everyone else who is interested to not let you DM a game they play in ever level of screwing over. Sure, they could've identified the axe, but if the DM readily gives you the information, why bother? The grand narrative is too serious for crappy DM shenanigans messing with the players at that level, even if Herbert is a sucky DM.

Guus wrote:Possibly. Wouldn't really enjoy that type of plot twist though.
"Yeah, remember that information I gave you about the axe? It turned out to be a lie, what a tweeeeest! Muahahaha". That's not just bad DMing, that's actively screwing over your players. Causing your players to walk away from your table and warning everyone else who is interested to not let you DM a game they play in ever level of screwing over. Sure, they could've identified the axe, but if the DM readily gives you the information, why bother? The grand narrative is too serious for crappy DM shenanigans messing with the players at that level, even if Herbert is a sucky DM.

Totally agree. The awesomeness of Big Ears' retort was really undermined for me because of the left-fieldedness of BE's deduction, especially based on the past knowledge we received that that most people would normally assume is reliable.

Have to agree. I don't like the idea that the info dump may have been a lie.

RocketScientist wrote:Have to agree. I don't like the idea that the info dump may have been a lie.

Which one?

Anyway, the alternatives (as I see them) are:
1. We have a situation where BOTH comics are true. I'll trust you guys that that doesn't make sense at the moment, so the only way to make this work is if there's other information that we don't know about yet.
2. One of the pages contains (some) false information: The liar could either be the Axe (which contains a demon-god, apparently) or the flea-demon, or we could have misinformed paladins leaving an honest, but no-longer-(completely-)true message. In the meantime, the demon deity has managed to find a loophole in the axe's fine-print that allows him to exploit the nature of its prison and essentially forcing the axe-bearer to screw things up and set it free.
3. Both the pages contain (some) false information: As above, but both the axe / flea-demon are either lying or misinformed.
4. Everything is a lie. Fuck it, let's let the world burn and buy a one-way ticket to somewhere else.
5. Big-Ears is wrong. This seems somewhat unlikely given our meta-knowledge from THunt, but let's be honest - he's been jumping to a LOT of conclusions lately with rather little to back him up. A quick insight check from someone else would go a long way to resolving what's going on at the moment.
6. Something else?

I don't think having the axe tell lies would be particularly satisfying either given that we've had no hint that it was the demon-deity speaking. Saying that, the reasons for the axe breaking in the first place still seem pretty weird to me and we only have BE's interpretation to go on as an explanation for it... I guess it comes down to who's our least-reliable source of knowledge out of the demon-deity, the flea-demon, the Axe's answerphone message or Big Ears.

The information we have now vs the information the axe relayed is contradictory.

We know for a fact, now, that the axe page could not possibly have been right about the demon - otherwise it would already be game over, the Sacred would be free, and nothing could stop it.

This means that the axe information was, at the very least, manipulated. More likely it was entirely made up to begin with.

I agree that Big Ears is jumping to some conclusions, such as it not being his fault. But he isn't wrong that the axe had to be created in Hell, and Kore had to have been cursed before it was created. Those two pieces of information are enough to say the Axe had likely at least heavily edited the history it gives to the wielder.

My own guess is that Big Ears is both right and wrong in it not being his fault. The axe would, eventually, have broken, perhaps not until the far future. But it is still beneficial it broke now while in the hands of a paladin who will do everything that can be done to cast the axe back into hell.

Going back to the story of the Ork, it doesn't make sense. A Demon would be enraged by not being freed, but it would not suffer. Demons don't care about the mere passage of time.

It might be considered cheap that everything we knew about the Axe was a lie, but perhaps we should have realized that sooner, given we all knew there was a paladin walking around committing incontrovertibly evil acts, and that the Axe's creation involved a demon.

thinkslogically wrote:

RocketScientist wrote:Have to agree. I don't like the idea that the info dump may have been a lie.

Which one?

Well, I was talking about the Axe page, originally. I guess maybe if the flea demon is lying and the god demon *can* come into this reality, then the Axe page might not be a lie. But then why isn't it here yet?

I can't remember, did Thunt tell us whether or not the demon is being truthful? I thought I'd read someone say it was mostly true with an agenda or something like that, but I can't find it, and I'm tired. lol.

The Axe page only writes about an "angry pseudo Deity", and about a "Demon of furious power".

A trapped Demon Deity may just be a convenient lie, to overstate the power of the trapped demon, and drain hope from the adventurers.
A high level Demon is still beatable, but a deity?

I have a question about the axe page. See if you're going to create an object that must only be used to do selfless good deeds, why would you make an axe? Seems like that's just asking for abuse... I mean, it's very easy to be evil with an axe, but LOT harder to be evil with a hand-knitted blanket for kittens.

Another thought just occurred to me. We have suspected all along, but now we know for sure that Kore being cursed is essential. The whole story depends on it. This curse matters. Enormously.

Now glance back at Forgath's storyline, where we have a couple of new characters who have been... oh, look at that! very conspicuously and weirdly cursed!

Just wanting to appreciate the weaving of story-threads. Random encounters? Hah! Nothing is random here, I tell you, nothing! Well, okay. Maybe some things are, but time and again, as the story unfolds we realize that when some detail catches our eye as odd, there's a reason for it which we will learn in the fullness of time.

If demons created the Ax, could it be that the reason it cannot hurt paladins be that they wanted Paladin souls nearby when it was broken?

Xavier78 wrote:Problem would be solved easily. All Minmax has to do is call Not-Walter. Axe gone.

Also, someone mentioned the Axe is breaking because Ears is a Paladin? If that is the case, can't he just hand it to Complains? A Demon holding it would surely stop it from breaking wouldn't it?

MM is so dense he can't even understand his own weapon. You sure we won't figure that out without Kin?

She's good with breaking it down for him...'Penis go boom' and all that.

JP

Also: Wearshats, I want you on my D&D team.

Morgaln wrote:At this point, we don't know whether the info is wrong or not. Ears is making a lot of assumptions in his speech, but the only one that has actual evidence is that the battle took place in hell. It's entirely possible that the demon deity planned to be imprisoned and is counting on the axe breaking, but we don't know what conditions would make that happen. Good deeds might still keep it strong and evil deeds might still weaken it (although that was not part of the original information), so the demon might just have gone with the assumption that sooner or later, even a paladin wouldn't be able to do enough good deeds.
There is at least one page on a previous owner of the axe (Myorg the Ogre) which strongly implies that the original information is true. Of course if we assume that the information about the axe was wrong and that Big Ears' theory is right, then by extention we have to assume that all the pages on previous owners of the axe are made up as well.

What was the source ofthe Paladin Pages? Were they from the Ax, or were they bonus content from the mouth of Thunt?

Also worth thinking about, Myorg killed Paladins while carrying a weapon that can't hurt them.

BE was instantly made knowledgeable of the axe's info. So the assumption is that the page is what BE learned then.

Davis8488 wrote:

Morgaln wrote:At this point, we don't know whether the info is wrong or not. Ears is making a lot of assumptions in his speech, but the only one that has actual evidence is that the battle took place in hell. It's entirely possible that the demon deity planned to be imprisoned and is counting on the axe breaking, but we don't know what conditions would make that happen. Good deeds might still keep it strong and evil deeds might still weaken it (although that was not part of the original information), so the demon might just have gone with the assumption that sooner or later, even a paladin wouldn't be able to do enough good deeds.
There is at least one page on a previous owner of the axe (Myorg the Ogre) which strongly implies that the original information is true. Of course if we assume that the information about the axe was wrong and that Big Ears' theory is right, then by extention we have to assume that all the pages on previous owners of the axe are made up as well.

What was the source ofthe Paladin Pages? Were they from the Ax, or were they bonus content from the mouth of Thunt?

You mean the Axe of Prissan wearers pages? (not all were paladins)
Those were bonus content of the mouth of Thunt, information which belongs to his universe, but would otherwise never make it into the comic.
They are canon, as confirmed by Thunt.

Krulle wrote:

Davis8488 wrote:

Morgaln wrote:At this point, we don't know whether the info is wrong or not. Ears is making a lot of assumptions in his speech, but the only one that has actual evidence is that the battle took place in hell. It's entirely possible that the demon deity planned to be imprisoned and is counting on the axe breaking, but we don't know what conditions would make that happen. Good deeds might still keep it strong and evil deeds might still weaken it (although that was not part of the original information), so the demon might just have gone with the assumption that sooner or later, even a paladin wouldn't be able to do enough good deeds.
There is at least one page on a previous owner of the axe (Myorg the Ogre) which strongly implies that the original information is true. Of course if we assume that the information about the axe was wrong and that Big Ears' theory is right, then by extention we have to assume that all the pages on previous owners of the axe are made up as well.

What was the source ofthe Paladin Pages? Were they from the Ax, or were they bonus content from the mouth of Thunt?

You mean the Axe of Prissan wearers pages? (not all were paladins)
Those were bonus content of the mouth of Thunt, information which belongs to his universe, but would otherwise never make it into the comic.
They are canon, as confirmed by Thunt.

I believe the question is if they are true. If they are simply part of what the axe relayed to Big Ears then them and everything about them is suspect, as the axe appears to have been compromised from the very start.

Basically, are the pages Word of God, or are they simply a depiction of the Axe's information.

Well, before this comic page I would have said Word of God. Now nothing makes sense, and I have no idea.

Flat colors Permalink: http://www.goblinscomic.org/09182016-2/

It kind of depends. BE specifically said "her" when referring to the Paladin killed by Saral Caine, which is Dri Featherknife. So I assume that BE knows about the axe owners and that it's therefore information given by the axe. Which makes everything suspect if the axe in fact is a DM's big middle finger.

Could it be that the Axe was enchanted to tell a specific story of it's origin, edited to how the demon's or paladin's wanted it to be viewed instead of the more horrible truth? Along with the telling of the background of the previous owner's, it would allow whichever Paladin was holding the Axe to be proud of the duty they were providing to the realm. They are/were protecting it from a horrible fate. It isn't their fault the Axe was enchanted differently than they were aware of.

It isn't a lie from the DM or THunt. Items that are that magically enchanted can have layers of spells on them to do different things. It isn't implausible for a spell to be laid on it to tell a different version of the truth.

Wolfie wrote:It isn't a lie from the DM or THunt. Items that are that magically enchanted can have layers of spells on them to do different things. It isn't implausible for a spell to be laid on it to tell a different version of the truth.

And without getting it actually Identified or checked out...

Wolfie wrote:Could it be that the Axe was enchanted to tell a specific story of it's origin, edited to how the demon's or paladin's wanted it to be viewed instead of the more horrible truth? Along with the telling of the background of the previous owner's, it would allow whichever Paladin was holding the Axe to be proud of the duty they were providing to the realm. They are/were protecting it from a horrible fate. It isn't their fault the Axe was enchanted differently than they were aware of.

It isn't a lie from the DM or THunt. Items that are that magically enchanted can have layers of spells on them to do different things. It isn't implausible for a spell to be laid on it to tell a different version of the truth.

if the background of the axe turns out to be untrue, then the DM did in fact lie. It may have been because of a spell or whatever that gives the Paladin wrong information on purpose, but it's a lie nonetheless. Heck, the whole schtick about the axe would in that case be that it's made to pull one over on Paladins. The DM makes/chooses the magic items to use, so yes, they'd be lying.

Identify magic item is a level 2 spell that can be cast by wizards, sorcerers and bards. The group has no wizard, sorcerer or bard. Adding something like that in a game where the players have no option of visiting a mage to get it checked is a dick move. A serious dick move. If you want to use something like that as a DM, you need to make sure the party has the possibility of figuring it out. The goblins didn't get that.