The Goblins Fan Forum

I don't know how much THunt is using a played game to plot the story, or how much the DM of that game may have railroaded the action, but it is possible to give time-overlapped PCs the opportunity to experience both legs of a temporal switchback with a high degree of player autonomy.

The only sacrifice that must be made is that during the subjectively first trip through the overlap period, the players will know they are in a temporal switchback even though their characters may still be ignorant of the situation.

The technique is to play both legs of the switchback simultaneously. Each player must control the two editions of his character on each turn. This constitutes grandmaster level D&D playing and should not be attempted without several hundred hours experience at the board.

Some of the factors that make this technique so difficult are:

• The ignorance of the earlier edition characters about the overlap must be preserved until it is legitimately revealed to them within the game.

• Earlier edition characters must not permanently die since they must appear as later editions.

• The later edition characters usually have initiative because they are more familiar with the scene, but the earlier edition characters should move first so that later edition characters can "remember" their actions.

For example, in the action represented in the current strip (http://www.goblinscomic.org/05262016-2) panel 8 --

• DM: Early MM, the heavy blue monster charges downstream.

• MM player: Roll for initiative.

• DM: You have initiative.

• MM player: Early MM vaults one-handed over the low wall, holding Oblivious in defensive position 2.

• <other players make their early edition moves>

• DM: Later MM, a heavy gray monster has initiative. He vaults one-handed over the low wall, holding a double-edged sword in defensive position 2.

• MM player: Later MM prepares to block with Oblivious from offensive position 6.

• <other players make their later edition moves>

• <turn ends>

taran47 wrote:For reference compare the bottom 2 panels of this page http://www.goblinscomic.org/03302016-2/
with the current one.

As to why this group looks different compared to how the room made their time altered selves appear on the other side I think that's a really clever touch to the illusion / trap of these rooms.

In the livestream, Thunt showed us one superimposed over the other. It doesn't work so well with Minmax, but it's pretty cool with the GAP. Now that the shaded version has been posted, I made it into an animated GIF.

Made a comparison image to make it easier for those wishing to... well... compare. It is amazingly well done, kudos to Thunt.

So the demonic appearance of GAP+Max future selves and past selves is an illusion, and the evil that Past-Ears detected was actually coming from the demon escaping from the shattered axe held by Future-Ears?

That's a possibility yes. Seems to make the most sense to me.

kjrubberducky wrote:So the demonic appearance of GAP+Max future selves and past selves is an illusion, and the evil that Past-Ears detected was actually coming from the demon escaping from the shattered axe held by Future-Ears?

This would mean that weapons with their properties are being transfered over to future/past selves, and possibly exist in both "times" at the same time. Names sword got +1 for no apparent reason, unless that reason was because his future self sword at that time got +1. But what is more interesting is Oblivious, sword that can't exist outside Minmax hand, existing in two places at the same time, and clashing with itself. And while mechanics can be all handwaved by "it's all Minmax", it'll be interesting to see how his 'past-self-future-demon' pulls Ovlivious hand switch maneuver with his sword all tied to his hand like that.

Thanks to Wears and Alarikun for the comparative images!

kjrubberducky wrote:So the demonic appearance of GAP+Max future selves and past selves is an illusion, and the evil that Past-Ears detected was actually coming from the demon escaping from the shattered axe held by Future-Ears?

Guus wrote:That's a possibility yes. Seems to make the most sense to me.

Wouldn't it make more sense that the "evil" Ears detected was also an illusion, since the Axe has already been shown not to work that way?

I do not at all think this is a GM railroading them into an action. I see it as a future echo. It is just one of many possibilities exploring the same basic theme that was taking place in the Maze of Many where different actions in the same circumstances lead to different outcomes. Minmax could have chosen not to draw his sword. The players could have chosen to run for the exit door after the demons were alerted. They could have chosen to make a surprise attack against the demons the moment they saw them. The players could have chosen to not go through the door the demon was pointing at and instead headed toward the door they were originally sneaking towards. All of those would have changed how the action took place. And at that point the future echo versions probably would have faded away or some such. I say this because decades ago as a GM I put a similar room in a dungeon and the players altered the results by recognizing what was going on.

So far the only thing that bothers me about this scenario is that the red Thaco looks like a Strongbad character.

There could definitely be an evil aura in the room too, as part of the magic/illusion going on. I hasn't considered that.

My guess is that it's Past Ears sensing the evil emanating from Future Ears's axe.

As for Complains's sword: That will be explained in the comic. But Thunt showed us the sword a while back when he drew it for G:AR 1.0.
Two more images. Stills of the old page superimposed over the new. It just looks cool.

Mickey Mouse doubling as Spider-Man.

Can anyone please explain how Oblivious can exist in two (or more?) places at once? I thought that wouldn't be possible given how it supposedly works? Also, same for Big Ears' Demon Axe...

I woud if I could

Xavier78 wrote:Can anyone please explain how Oblivious can exist in two (or more?) places at once? I thought that wouldn't be possible given how it supposedly works? Also, same for Big Ears' Demon Axe...

Can it? Or is it really existing in two different times at once? Which we sort of already know it can do...

High level magic is confusing.

Time travel is confusing.

High level magic time travel, which hasn't even begun to be explained (the GAP hasn't even figured out that it is time travel)...

We'll see.

We don't even know that they have time traveled. Could be magical simulacra of their past/future selves. Copying Oblivious is a paradox, yes, but Oblivious itself is a paradox.

In short: Insufficient information. This whole thing is just starting.

thinkslogically wrote:

Xavier78 wrote:Can anyone please explain how Oblivious can exist in two (or more?) places at once? I thought that wouldn't be possible given how it supposedly works? Also, same for Big Ears' Demon Axe...

Can it? Or is it really existing in two different times at once? Which we sort of already know it can do...

How so? Clearly I must be forgetting the page where it existed twice in the same reality...

Xavier78 wrote:Can anyone please explain how Oblivious can exist in two (or more?) places at once? I thought that wouldn't be possible given how it supposedly works? Also, same for Big Ears' Demon Axe...

I am pretty sure this room not copying Oblivious at all - it just create weapons with the same stats (a shadow copy of a given weapon?) so the demon-MM has a weapon ACTS LIKE it is Oblivious - but in reality, it is another sword.

This whole room just copy the skills and soul of the players/items, not creating an exact duplicate. And its do in a metaphorical way (Oblivious tied to MM, Ears Axe tied to his hands, etc)

Xavier78 wrote:

thinkslogically wrote:

Xavier78 wrote:Can anyone please explain how Oblivious can exist in two (or more?) places at once? I thought that wouldn't be possible given how it supposedly works? Also, same for Big Ears' Demon Axe...

Can it? Or is it really existing in two different times at once? Which we sort of already know it can do...

How so? Clearly I must be forgetting the page where it existed twice in the same reality...

I think she's talking about how it exists for future Minmax who is drawing the sword at the same time it exists for past Minmax letting go of it. So one copy is in two different times at once. We don't know what that would like if Minmax was in a time loop with himself.

But like Wears said, we don't have enough information to even formulate much of a guess at this point.

RocketScientist wrote:
I think she's talking about how it exists for future Minmax who is drawing the sword at the same time it exists for past Minmax letting go of it. So one copy is in two different times at once. We don't know what that would like if Minmax was in a time loop with himself.

But like Wears said, we don't have enough information to even formulate much of a guess at this point.

OK I think I understand now, as best I can any how, thank you.

Technically, the sword doesn't exist. The reason he's able to draw it through time is that, being made of oblivion, it's untouched by time. Which is weird and paradoxical, but that's the point. So there isn't really a reason it couldn't not exist in two places.

Actually, that's a little akin to a photon. According to relativity, time slows down the faster you go, until it basically comes to a dead stop when you hit light speed. A photon could travel from the other end of the known universe, taking billions of years to cross an unimaginably vast strech of space before crashing uselessly into your closed eyelid, and, from the photon's point of view, literally no time would have passed in its entire life. It existed for billions of years, but experienced no time at all.

Oblivious is a slice of nothingness. It can't be moved when hit because you can't move nothing. Only its wielder can move it, by the magic of the sword. When not wielded, it doesn't exist at all. As soon as Minmax lets go of the hilt, the sword vanishes from the universe. It's outside of space and time until Minmax draws it again, at which point a hole opens in the fabric of space-time between the moment he let it go and the moment he drew it again.

Now, you tell me... How is that affected by (assuming this is one) being in a time loop in which Minmax, fully equipped, meets his future self? Seriously, can you figure out a definitive logical rule for that?

Sure, it's a paradox for it to exist in two places at once. But how is it more of a paradox than it existing at all?

ETA: I just realized something. When Minmax is about to die, you'll know it. Because he'll drop the sword and no one will pick it up through the hole.

WearsHats wrote:Technically, the sword doesn't exist. The reason he's able to draw it through time is that, being made of oblivion, it's untouched by time. Which is weird and paradoxical, but that's the point. So there isn't really a reason it couldn't not exist in two places.

Actually, that's a little akin to a photon. According to relativity, time slows down the faster you go, until it basically comes to a dead stop when you hit light speed. A photon could travel from the other end of the known universe, taking billions of years to cross an unimaginably vast strech of space before crashing uselessly into your closed eyelid, and, from the photon's point of view, literally no time would have passed in its entire life. It existed for billions of years, but experienced no time at all.

Oblivious is a slice of nothingness. It can't be moved when hit because you can't move nothing. Only its wielder can move it, by the magic of the sword. When not wielded, it doesn't exist at all. As soon as Minmax lets go of the hilt, the sword vanishes from the universe. It's outside of space and time until Minmax draws it again, at which point a hole opens in the fabric of space-time between the moment he let it go and the moment he drew it again.

Now, you tell me... How is that affected by (assuming this is one) being in a time loop in which Minmax, fully equipped, meets his future self? Seriously, can you figure out a definitive logical rule for that?

Sure, it's a paradox for it to exist in two places at once. But how is it more of a paradox than it existing at all?

ETA: I just realized something. When Minmax is about to die, you'll know it. Because he'll drop the sword and no one will pick it up through the hole.

While I could have done without the sarcasm to an honest question, that is a solid explanation. Thanks.

I specifically added the "Seriously" to show that the question was not intended to be sarcastic. I realized it could be read that way, and didn't want it to come across as such.

Update: I just asked Thunt about this in the livestream.