Trinity Isles OOC

[M0rtimer]

Heh, yeah, I think it might have been that... And oops - Male.

And actually, shadow moves are super effective against all pokemon, but resisted by trainers and other shadow pokemon.

"Madness" is an added mechanic to all shadow moves, which can add further debilitation to them. Every shadow moves comes with a DC check, upon which failing it will have you roll on the following table...

I'm actually not too sure about whether I'd restrict exp gain, but moves at least are locked until the pokemon in question is "purified"... Good luck with that, by the way.

And I'm basing the moves on the official moves, so yeah, AC 2 for both.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Eerrr...what table? Also depending how powerful it is, it should have easier resistances because they are at will and eot moves.

[Dusk9]

Super-effective against ALL non-Shadow Pokemon?! Wow, that's pretty nuts

Restricted Movelist kinda hurts, since Honchkrows don't get a lot of good pre-Lv40 Moves. But those Shadow Moves are more than strong enough to make up for that. That said, it doesn't really matter how strong it is if I can't even control him properly. I'm planning on treating him more like small nuclear warhead - point him in the general direction of my enemies and hope for the best

[Dusk9]

Eerrr...what table? Also depending how powerful it is, it should have easier resistances because they are at will and eot moves.

I'm assuming it's the same as the one he posted a couple of updates ago...

1: Grief: Confusion
2: Depression: Disabled
3: Hatred: Enraged
4: Obsession: Infatuation
5: Fear: Slowed
6: Insanity: ???

No idea what ??? is supposed to be though.

[Arch Lich Burns]

If it lasts 1 round that would be fine but if it lasts longer then the dcs should be lowered. Also knowing what ??? Does is useful to know.

[Dlover]

Super-effective against ALL non-Shadow Pokemon?! Wow, that's pretty nuts

If it's going to be the same as the games, while shadow-moves are SE to all types other than Shadow, defensively the Shadow type (Which all shadow pokemon have) is weak to everything except Shadow moves. So it deals double damage, takes double damage.

[Dusk9]

If it lasts 1 round that would be fine but if it lasts longer then the dcs should be lowered. Also knowing what ??? Does is useful to know.

Confusion, Enraged, and Infatuation all have checks to end naturally each round. Disabled and Slowed are "permanent", but recalling will remove them - maybe restricting them to 1 or 2 turns would make sense. Can't really say for ???, since I don't know what it does either. That said, having the negative effects build up the longer you're exposed sounds like an interesting (and scary!) prospect.

And the DCs seemed pretty good to me. The only one who had trouble was Bugsy, and that's because he only has 2d6 Focus.

DC 7 is about a 50% chance to pass for Untrained Focus, ~85% for Novice.
DC 10 is 16.67% at Untrained Focus, 50% for Novice, and 84.1% for Adept.
DC 13 is probably the nastiest; impossible for Untrained, ~25% for Novice, ~65% Adept, and ~85% Expert.

Actually, it's probably a good thing Izzy was the one to encounter these guys first. She's the only PC with Focus above Untrained - the rest of you would've really struggled.
At most I might recommend Mort drop the DC 13 check to 12, so 2d6 Focus has a (small) chance of actually succeeding. But he might want Shadow Pokemon to be a really scary, dangerous enemy for anyone not mentally prepared to deal with the side effects. And evolved Pokemon generally have pretty good Focus, so it's mainly gonna be a problem for Trainers or Underdogs anyway.

If it's going to be the same as the games, while shadow-moves are SE to all types other than Shadow, defensively the Shadow type (Which all shadow pokemon have) is weak to everything except Shadow moves. So it deals double damage, takes double damage.

That would make sense. I suppose the trade-off there would be them getting STAB on their Shadow Moves. Although, would the Shadow type replace one of their existing types, or be a kinda "3rd type" situation?

[Dlover]

It's up to Mort whether the pokemon even gets a Shadow type. But in the games... I saw it ages ago, I can't remember if it was just a mechanic where shadow pokemon took double damage, they had their second type replaced with Shadow, or if they were pure Shadow. :\


I checked it, and it seems like Shadow wasn't actually a type in the first place. I actually can't find records of shadow pokemon being weak to all types, even though I could've sworn they were. Only reference I'm seeing to effectiveness is a statement that shadow moves were actually neutral to all types in Collosseum and SE in XD.

Edit: I found some images of captured shadow pokemon. They didn't have a Shadow type, but shadow moves did. Bulbapedia lied to me, apparently.
No sign of the double damage, though. Maybe I'm just insane. Or maybe it was somebody saying they effectively take double damage from all non-shadow moves because they resist Shadow. I dunno, I'm confused.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Thing is, the shadow moves are already super effective. Along side that a dc check 13 on an at will move is aboslutetly absurd. Espessially considering disable doesn't even say what move it does it to. If they only last for 1 round I would be okay with it, but as it is it's too powerful. Honestly the only one that should have a madness dc is shadow rain (and that dc is fine because it does it every round) and the other two get madness at a natrual roll of 19+. Because as I see it right now, it is too over powered.

Edit: I don't think it should get stab on it's moves, because it already has an at will db 9 move that is se agaisnt almost everything. The highest I could think of on at will is db 6, so it's already powerful enought to be an eot move without madness.

Edit edit: I figured out what ??? does. It changes them to a shadow pokemon, doesn't it? That one would need to not exist at all.

[Dlover]

We've established that there's no stab because pokemon don't get a Shadow type and I'm just bad at knowing things.


It wouldn't make more shadow pokemon. Primarily because having your pokemon turn into shadow pokemon:
a. Makes no sense unless they hate you.
b. Prevents you from making any progress in the game.

Secondarily, because the 'madness' affects trainers too. Shadow Trainers?

[Dusk9]

Dlover's right, Shadow Trainers doesn't sound very likely. If we're gonna be guessing what ??? does, my bet is some kind of non-Status debilitating effect. Hallucinations, maybe? Or possibly an effect which makes future Madness/Focus checks more difficult (+DC, Focus rank is reduced, etc).

[Natrivv]

What if the effect is hyper mode?

effects of hyper/reverse mode

► Show Spoiler

Shadow Rush has an increased critical hit ratio.
If the Pok├®mon is ordered to use any move other than Shadow Rush, it may take one of the following actions instead:
It may disobey and use another move (usually Shadow Rush).
It may turn and attack its teammate.
It may attempt to use its item, even if it isn't holding one.
It may hurt itself, as if it were confused.
It may attack its Trainer or the opposing Trainer.
If it is in the middle of a two-turn move such as Fly, there is a small chance it will leave Hyper Mode on its own.
It may do nothing at all.
It may return to its Pok├® Ball, even if it under the effect of Block, Mean Look, or Spider Web. (If there is no Pok├®mon it can switch with, it will try but be unable to switch.)
Items cannot be used on a Pok├®mon in Hyper Mode, except Scents.

While in Reverse Mode, a Pok├®mon hurts itself after every turn, whereas a Pok├®mon in Hyper Mode incurs no self-damage.

that sounds like insanity to me

[Dlover]

Increased DC on the madness? Doesn't that seem... Kind of meaningless since for most people it's already impossible? Izzy's the only one who a- Oh, right, pokemon. I forget that they have Skills.


On another note, whenever I use Empowered Development on a pokemon, I make a Homebrew entry on the data sheets to account for it. I realised earlier today that the range the skills looked at wasn't actually large enough to catch those entries. So, surely the solution is just to extend that range. Except there are so damn many cells to correct that way. And I can't just correct one and copy-paste because the calculations manually referenced the skills by name and column number. So I decided to correct that and make it reference based on the skill name on the pokemon's sheet. It was a bit of a hassle to work out how to get the column number, but once that was done it all works smoothly. Except that on the pokemon sheets Pokemon Education has an accent on the e and on the skill sheet it doesn't, but that's not hard to fix.

[M0rtimer]

In case I wasn't clear in post: the helicopter is currently landed. You just see the goon sitting at the pilot seat.

As for the whole shadow pokemon discussion: no, shadow type is not a thing (at least, I hadn't planned to make it to.) Table is correct and I forgot to paste it in. I think I will lower the "high" DC to 12 just to give that tiny chance for untrained people to escape, but shadow pokemon are MEANT to be dangerous and powerful. And yes, Burns, I'm aware that shadow moves would mean you wouldn't want to use anything else. You also can't get shadow moves without shadow pokemon, they're removed once they stop being shadow pokemon, and shadow pokemon come with their own issues. But no, shadow moves don't get STAB.

And nah, the insanity thing isn't "turn into shadow pokemon", because that wouldn't make sense. You could say it's a bit based on "hyper/reverse" mode, but not really. You'll find out what it is eventually.

[Dlover]

In case I wasn't clear in post: the helicopter is currently landed. You just see the goon sitting at the pilot seat.

I'm just trying to decide on how to find out what's on the other side of the helicopter without being seen.

And nah, the insanity thing isn't "turn into shadow pokemon", because that wouldn't make sense. You could say it's a bit based on "hyper/reverse" mode, but not really. You'll find out what it is eventually.

Unless nobody hit by a shadow pokemon ever rolls a 6. It's entirely possible.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Why does madness affect the target anyways? In colloseum it affected the user so as to have a downside as to not use the move.

Shadow pokemon seem extreamly powerful. Too much compared to a normal pokemon. All db 9 or higher moves that are at will have detriments. Either they have a high ac, or they have recoil

[Natrivv]

What if the effect is hyper mode?

And nah, the insanity thing isn't "turn into shadow pokemon", because that wouldn't make sense. You could say it's a bit based on "hyper/reverse" mode, but not really. You'll find out what it is eventually.

I'm pretty sure this is the closest I'll get to guessing any of the plot stuff, so I'm just proclaim a "called it! "

Also Shadow pokemon are suppose to by powerful to the point of being broken, that's why they're used by the crime syndicates. Shadow pokemon are pokemon who have the doors to the heart closed. They are turned into a "soulless fighting machine" They're just as likely to attack the trainer as they are a pokemon, and will always go at full force.

The other thing is, I'm pretty sure the pokemon are also going to default to a Loyalty of 0 which means they also come with all of those side effects, including trying to run away, instantly attacking Izzy, choosing to sleep instead, ect.

Though on thing I just found out was that effort values are also withheld till the pokemon is purified, so maybe the tabletop equivalent would be the inability to spend tutor points?

[Dlover]

The notes on being overpowered aren't related to you catching it so much as the potential of having to fight them later. The negatives you've listed are only bad for the trainer. If it's wild it's not going to disobey itself, and can't spend TP anyway.

[Arch Lich Burns]

It's not like it would even affect enemy trainers. They more than likely get good enough command/intimidate or whatever else they need to control them.

Enraged is probably the worst one for all of us because of it's effects on us if we are not close enough to the enemy. We can't even use the action to get rid of it. Disabled is next because we don't know what move is disabled. Confusion and Inflatuation are both kinda bothersome. THe only one that is 'okay' is slowed. And who knows what insanity does.

[Dusk9]

....you guys do realise that the Shadow Pokemon are probably Zygarde's minions, right? Same as how the Ultra Beasts are minions of the Overseer? The chances of us fighting enemy Trainers with Shadow Pokemon seems almost non-existent to me - and even if the Godslayers do manage to get some, they'll probably be using some kind of techno-control system that we can take advantage of by breaking/stealing or whatever

Enraged is probably the worst one for all of us because of it's effects on us if we are not close enough to the enemy. We can't even use the action to get rid of it. Disabled is next because we don't know what move is disabled. Confusion and Inflatuation are both kinda bothersome. THe only one that is 'okay' is slowed. And who knows what insanity does.

Yeah, Enraged is pretty sucky. But only if you weren't planning on attacking already. If you were gonna attack anyway, then it does literally nothing (note that you don't have to actually hit anyone, either, just "use a Damaging Move/Attack" - so punching a tree is totally allowed). And you can help someone Take A Breather to remove it, though it costs both of your actions and requires a DC 12 Command check (which seems absurdly expensive for what it is, but sure). Disabled presumably affects a random move, and can be removed easily with Take A Breather. Confusion/Infatuation have checks to end (and confusion doesn't even stop you from attacking anymore either). And against Pokemon, all of these effects can be removed through recalling them.

Again though, these effects are supposed to be bad. Or did you miss the part where sending a Shadow Pokemon against Izzy was supposed to be a big punishment for breaking Zygarde's code?

[M0rtimer]

Probably should also have mentioned that before: the disabling effect by default selects the last move the target used, random if none. It can also only keep one move disabled at a time, so if it's rolled again it replaces the previous one.

All off the effects are meant to be debilitating, but none are meant to be so bad that they leave you with no options. If they all start piling up then maybe, but that's part of the intention too.

[Arch Lich Burns]

Except there are cases where we don't have trees, and it forces a non combatant (or a person without damaging moves) person to waste thier turns or have two people waste thier turns. Espessially when that move is spammable and you can easily land on it again, after doing a check that you have very little chance of making, making those wasted turns so much worse. Enraged is the option that leaves non combat characters without a choice without any of the others.

I don't see how it being Zygarde's minions is any relevance. Nor the fact it's supposed to be punishment/debilitating/super powerful/bad. I've had characters rendered utterly useless and killed (or nearly killed) for similar reasonings. Each time it feels cheap, espessially more so with (nearly) impossible rolls to beat to overcome it.

[Dlover]

I'm aware that they're Zygarde's minions. They're effective minibosses. But they just initially seemed kind of annoying to fight, because of a weird power on their shadow moves. Mostly because it's the only move I know that enforces a DC check, and one that basically nobody has, to boot. But they're actually not that bad. The effects mostly aren't bad, just annoying, amd there are ways to get around it. For example, if I had Dusk(My dusclops, not you) get hit by Shadow Rush, she'd just Disable it, and that problem is gone. Except it's not because the shadow 'mon would just Take a Breather and get its good move back. Okay, scratch that. But if it's the status, really, the only ones that suffer over much are trainers. Why is that?

If the DC is 12, then most trainers will have 2d6, for a... What is it, 1/36 chance of not being affected? 2.8%.
Meanwhile, pokemon have their own focus ranks. For my pokemon, the worst of them have 3d6 focus, which means a 37.5% chance of resisting. Skill Improvement can be applied to Focus, bringing a 3d6 up to 4d6, which has a 76.1% resist rate.
My best pokemon, at the moment, has an extra +3 to focus, so he has a 74.1% chance of resisting, and 94.6% if I use Skill Enhancement.

Pokemon will draw the majority of attacks, so if they stay separated from the trainers the aoe won't really cause problems, though, so it's a null problem.

What remains is that it's an At-Will DB9 AC2 move which is super effective against all pokemon. All pokemon, not all types. Which means dual-typed pokemon aren't taking 3x damage. It's still an invariably double-damage DB9 move, though. Even without the status stuff, I'm pretty sure that's enough to sweep my entire party? So I guess the question is whether that's a suitable damage level for a miniboss?

[Dusk9]

The more I think about it, the more balanced I actually think it is. Like you say, the Madness will be more of a problem for Trainers, since most of them won't have anything over 2d6 in Focus. But Trainers only take 50% damage from the Moves, so they're more like DB5 than DB9.

Against Pokemon they're stronger obviously, but then the Madness checks are less effective. Assuming a min Focus of 3d6, that's a 62.5% chance of an effect on DC 12. And once you hit 4d6+ it's <30% effective. At that point it's only a little stronger than any other super-effective DB 9 move with a minor side-effect - Thunderbolt, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, etc. And that's assuming those Moves don't get STAB damage added on, or hit something with a x3 weakness.

On another note, this actually gives Trainers a pretty good reason to put spare Edges in Focus. Against a Trainer with 5d6 Focus and passable defences (e.g. 10+), Shadow Moves are basically a joke.

[Dlover]

Who even has spare edges? I've planned all the way up to level 28 and the only edges I'd consider displacing just to counter shadow pokemon are the last two.