Understandable, yet Frustrating?
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Some people just don't see the published schedule as a contract/promise made between THunt and the population of the Earth, so it's just not that to them, however much you might liken it to one.
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
@brnforce: There isn't a need to make it personal with other posters.
I do want to reiterate that whether people pay directly for a comic strip, isn't a measure of what they should be able to expect if it's being done commercially.
That's the key thing. Goblins isn't a hobby and isn't being presented as one. Thunt has solicited the support the community to help him turn it from a hobby to a business. The community responded. Whether comics are free isn't really relevant, what's relevant is that it's a business and he makes his livelihood at it, and only in the way all small business people are responsible to their consumers and source of revenue, so is Thunt.
I agree with you. If he stopped updating tomorrow it would be fine. No one would be entitled to an additional strip. Many small businesses close down, and that's understood. (It isn't what anyone wants, and don't take that as critical, it's just the nature of business. If he chose to, he could.)
I also agree that he can just update whenever he wants, and some people will probably keep active in the community.
Currently Thunt seems to have made most of his money via 'pledge drives' such as Tempts Fate. You can compare that to other community supported content such as public radio or TV. You don't pay for individual programs on NPR, but it's reasonable for people to feel entitled to a certain regularity in schedule and quality.
Thunt is excellent about connecting with his community and engaging it. If you want to contrast him with Tom Siddell at Gunnerkrigg Court, Tom actually inhibits the community a bit, allowing posting for each new page and then hiding all the comments on that page as soon as a new one is released. He also doesn't tend to engage within those threads. On the other hand, he's incredibly regular and puts up three strips a week almost without fail, with gorgeous art, and then has interstitials between chapters so he can keep a buffer. These are two different poles, strong community engagement with very poor product management, and excellent product managment with poor community engagement.
In the end, no matter how he structures the revenues from Goblins, whether he goes for advertising, for book sales, for pledge drives, the Goblins comic is his livelihood and a business and it pays his bills. Any other claims about it being free are a strawman, because it's the community that puts up the dollars and the community which is expressing itself in this thread. Is it universal? Not at all, many people would be happy whatever the schedule. That voice is important too. I think the message that should be heard though is that the current state of affairs has a significant part of the community unhappy. That's dangerous for a business.
Now in a positive vein, let me try this thought experiment, to look at what might help the community grow further and what's most important in his work:
1. Did you become a fan of Goblins initially due more to the story, due more to the art or due more to the community?
2. What would you value more as a fan, having individual pages with more robust detail and/or coloring, or more frequent pages?
3. When did you start reading the comic, and did the art then detract from your pleasure reading?
Let me provide these following pages, arbitrarily I've chosen the 1st page of the 16th chapter of each book
Book 1
Book 2
Book 3
Book 4
Pretty much by the 2nd book, I'm pretty happy with the art. Even with the 1st book for me personally answering question #3, I was happy. Thunt's stories are good and the art supported the stories well enough. That also answers question #1 for me, which is the story was more interesting to me than the art. And I think from my prior posts, in #2 you can guess that I'd prefer a more frequent updates to more beautiful pages.
Personally I think Thunt should keep engaging the community, it's one of his great strengths, but I think he should also listen and temper back his perfectionism on the art, as the art just isn't what makes Goblins successful. It's the story. More story, and more consistent story means more people sticking with the comic and thus more people being willing to funnel money to him regardless of the mechanism he chooses for his business.
Thus in that positive sense I'd say I love the comic, I love the story, the art is a 'good enough' vehicle to convey the story and it's my belief that by focusing on his strengths in story and community building, and making the art a tool to strengthen those.... Thunt can create something even better which would be wonderful
I do want to reiterate that whether people pay directly for a comic strip, isn't a measure of what they should be able to expect if it's being done commercially.
That's the key thing. Goblins isn't a hobby and isn't being presented as one. Thunt has solicited the support the community to help him turn it from a hobby to a business. The community responded. Whether comics are free isn't really relevant, what's relevant is that it's a business and he makes his livelihood at it, and only in the way all small business people are responsible to their consumers and source of revenue, so is Thunt.
I agree with you. If he stopped updating tomorrow it would be fine. No one would be entitled to an additional strip. Many small businesses close down, and that's understood. (It isn't what anyone wants, and don't take that as critical, it's just the nature of business. If he chose to, he could.)
I also agree that he can just update whenever he wants, and some people will probably keep active in the community.
Currently Thunt seems to have made most of his money via 'pledge drives' such as Tempts Fate. You can compare that to other community supported content such as public radio or TV. You don't pay for individual programs on NPR, but it's reasonable for people to feel entitled to a certain regularity in schedule and quality.
Thunt is excellent about connecting with his community and engaging it. If you want to contrast him with Tom Siddell at Gunnerkrigg Court, Tom actually inhibits the community a bit, allowing posting for each new page and then hiding all the comments on that page as soon as a new one is released. He also doesn't tend to engage within those threads. On the other hand, he's incredibly regular and puts up three strips a week almost without fail, with gorgeous art, and then has interstitials between chapters so he can keep a buffer. These are two different poles, strong community engagement with very poor product management, and excellent product managment with poor community engagement.
In the end, no matter how he structures the revenues from Goblins, whether he goes for advertising, for book sales, for pledge drives, the Goblins comic is his livelihood and a business and it pays his bills. Any other claims about it being free are a strawman, because it's the community that puts up the dollars and the community which is expressing itself in this thread. Is it universal? Not at all, many people would be happy whatever the schedule. That voice is important too. I think the message that should be heard though is that the current state of affairs has a significant part of the community unhappy. That's dangerous for a business.
Now in a positive vein, let me try this thought experiment, to look at what might help the community grow further and what's most important in his work:
1. Did you become a fan of Goblins initially due more to the story, due more to the art or due more to the community?
2. What would you value more as a fan, having individual pages with more robust detail and/or coloring, or more frequent pages?
3. When did you start reading the comic, and did the art then detract from your pleasure reading?
Let me provide these following pages, arbitrarily I've chosen the 1st page of the 16th chapter of each book
Book 1
Book 2
Book 3
Book 4
Pretty much by the 2nd book, I'm pretty happy with the art. Even with the 1st book for me personally answering question #3, I was happy. Thunt's stories are good and the art supported the stories well enough. That also answers question #1 for me, which is the story was more interesting to me than the art. And I think from my prior posts, in #2 you can guess that I'd prefer a more frequent updates to more beautiful pages.
Personally I think Thunt should keep engaging the community, it's one of his great strengths, but I think he should also listen and temper back his perfectionism on the art, as the art just isn't what makes Goblins successful. It's the story. More story, and more consistent story means more people sticking with the comic and thus more people being willing to funnel money to him regardless of the mechanism he chooses for his business.
Thus in that positive sense I'd say I love the comic, I love the story, the art is a 'good enough' vehicle to convey the story and it's my belief that by focusing on his strengths in story and community building, and making the art a tool to strengthen those.... Thunt can create something even better which would be wonderful
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
I'm not making anything personal. I'm simply stating that the mentality that the schedule of a free online webcomic is a personal promise/contract is a mentality of self entitlement.Shazam wrote:@brnforce: There isn't a need to make it personal with other posters.
- bcas77
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Does anyone else feel like this topic has been cyclical and redundant from the first page? One person says that they understand why THunt is doing what he does, but that they wish he'd hold to his 'promise' or at least be more vague, but they still love the comic. The next person says that they should stop being entitled.
- RidcullyJack
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
^^^ meta-comment breaks the cycle
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
I wonder if the increase in these threads/posts are because of the kickstarter? It may have driven some more people to the comic, and they are just going through growing pains.
- LordsBreed
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
brnforce wrote:mustache_man wrote: Meh. He may not understand donations, but some people have trouble understanding the concept of jobs and business in general. He may have been a little rough on the delivering (okay, ... a lot), but he was pretty much spot on. The comic itself is free, but it's paid for when we donate to Tempts, the kickstarter and when we buy books and stuff. Thunts makes a living out of it. If nobody donated we would either not have a comic or Thunt would still be working a day job. So yes, it's paid for, just not directly and not by everyone. The comic drives everything else. Be honest, almost nobody donated because of Tempts Fate, they did it because it sustained the comic.
So because people choose to donate for the wrong reasons they should now feel entitled to non-related items? "I bought a poster from you so now I want you to put out a new book every year Mr. Author."
Look, I understand the frustration that people have here. This was my initial reaction to all of this too. There comes a point however, that you have to get over that and realize that you are not entitled to any of this. If Goblins never updated again, you wouldn't be owed anything. My main points in this thread are aimed at helping some of you transition to a point where these things don't upset you anymore. That is the most conducive mindset to have and really enjoy this product.
There is a world of difference between buying a poster from someone, and paying someone's mortgage. For your flawed comparison to make sense and be comparable, here's how it would have happened.
GUY: "Hey author, how come you don't write more books?"
AUTHOR: "I have to work to pay more mortgage, so I don't have free time to write."
GUY: "Well.. how about I pay your mortgage? Will you write more books then?"
AUTHOR: "Of course! I'd have lots of free time, not having to work, so I could write books all the time!"
GUY: "Sounds like a deal!"
Two months later..
GUY: "So, how's the book coming along?"
AUTHOR:" Huh? Oh. Hi there. Sorry I didn't write a new book yet. I haven't had time.."
GUY: "The hell...?!"
- LordsBreed
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
brnforce wrote:I'm not making anything personal. I'm simply stating that the mentality that the schedule of a free online webcomic is a personal promise/contract is a mentality of self entitlement.Shazam wrote:@brnforce: There isn't a need to make it personal with other posters.
When you start your thoughts with "Lol", you are directly attacking and demeaning every single person who has an opinion different than you. I hardly feel you're doing it "accidentally".
Are we paying for the comic directly? No. Did we pay for the means so that he could direct his time on the comic because we enjoy it? Yes.
Again, I will comment on me personally. I don't care when the updates happen, if they happened ON TIME. He has an update schedule for Monday and he spend the first half of the week shading and coloring a comic we've already seen. It makes more sense to draw next weeks comic, then with his free time for that week go back and shade the last's week.
Monday: Posts comic.
Tuesday: Starts next week's comic.
Saturday: Finishes Monday's comic, sets it to auto upload and can now relax.
Sunday: Has some free time, goes back to shade last week's comic.
Monday, starts over.
I know I am not "Mr Time Manager" but this seems like a great way to reduce stress on Thunt and the readers.
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
lolLordsBreed wrote:brnforce wrote:I'm not making anything personal. I'm simply stating that the mentality that the schedule of a free online webcomic is a personal promise/contract is a mentality of self entitlement.Shazam wrote:@brnforce: There isn't a need to make it personal with other posters.
When you start your thoughts with "Lol", you are directly attacking and demeaning every single person who has an opinion different than you. I hardly feel you're doing it "accidentally".
Are we paying for the comic directly? No. Did we pay for the means so that he could direct his time on the comic because we enjoy it? Yes.
Again, I will comment on me personally. I don't care when the updates happen, if they happened ON TIME. He has an update schedule for Monday and he spend the first half of the week shading and coloring a comic we've already seen. It makes more sense to draw next weeks comic, then with his free time for that week go back and shade the last's week.
Monday: Posts comic.
Tuesday: Starts next week's comic.
Saturday: Finishes Monday's comic, sets it to auto upload and can now relax.
Sunday: Has some free time, goes back to shade last week's comic.
Monday, starts over.
I know I am not "Mr Time Manager" but this seems like a great way to reduce stress on Thunt and the readers.
lol stands for laugh out loud. That's not an insult.
- friedkitty
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
I think they mean that by saying LOL you give the impression that you are laughing at others opinions with disdain when they don't agree with yours, rather than trying to understand or respect them. I may disagree with your opinion, but I can respect that you feel that way and even try to understand that in certain cases you may even have a valid point. But I still can disagree with that opinion without appearing degrading by "laughing in your face" as an LOL seems to do.
I'm sure you meant it to show that you were trying to present an argumant with a light tone, but it came across as demeaning.
I'm sure you meant it to show that you were trying to present an argumant with a light tone, but it came across as demeaning.
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Just to offer a neutral point of view ...
I can't speak for other lurkers but for myself, one of the main reasons I tend to lurk (In any forum) instead of post is posts like brnforce's in this thread which belittle other peoples arguments, make accusatory statements and do not try to see the other point of view. Or at least comes across that way IMO.
I realise I am being a little offensive and I'm not meaning to be. The point you are making is valid, it's just the way it is coming across which seems hostile. (Which is probably a misunderstandnng on the readers part because it's difficult to read intent in text)
Back on topic. My main point of contention is not directly the sporadic updates. It's the fact that Thunt asked for money for something which he didnt deliver on (Tempts Fate) and then asks for more money for another project (Before the last one has been completed) and it affects the main comic which is the main reason I am here. I put money forward for the last Tempts fate but I haven't for the kick starter because I don't see why I should pay for something which has an immediate negative impact on the comic and when the last thing I put money forward for hasn't been completed.
Having said that. I do appreciate the free comic and love reading the things Thunt has to say.
I can't speak for other lurkers but for myself, one of the main reasons I tend to lurk (In any forum) instead of post is posts like brnforce's in this thread which belittle other peoples arguments, make accusatory statements and do not try to see the other point of view. Or at least comes across that way IMO.
I realise I am being a little offensive and I'm not meaning to be. The point you are making is valid, it's just the way it is coming across which seems hostile. (Which is probably a misunderstandnng on the readers part because it's difficult to read intent in text)
Back on topic. My main point of contention is not directly the sporadic updates. It's the fact that Thunt asked for money for something which he didnt deliver on (Tempts Fate) and then asks for more money for another project (Before the last one has been completed) and it affects the main comic which is the main reason I am here. I put money forward for the last Tempts fate but I haven't for the kick starter because I don't see why I should pay for something which has an immediate negative impact on the comic and when the last thing I put money forward for hasn't been completed.
Having said that. I do appreciate the free comic and love reading the things Thunt has to say.
- friedkitty
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Well here's hoping that the countdown clock comes out on Monday and that will make this whole conversation moot. If he starts running behind he can just toss a few more hours onto the clock.
Of course if the countdown clock sits at 0:00 for 2 days...there might be some , quite a bit of and a whole lot of .
Time will tell.
Of course if the countdown clock sits at 0:00 for 2 days...there might be some , quite a bit of and a whole lot of .
Time will tell.
- RocketScientist
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
I think this is at least the hundredth one of these threads I've read over the years, so I have to ask this. What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say." And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.
Or are you looking to round up an angry mob of like-minded people so you can all sit around and say, "damn, Thunt never updates on time! Grr, Argh!" Do you maybe just like to hear yourself complain for the sheer sake of complaining?
Is there some other reason I'm overlooking that makes complaining to the forums a productive use of your time?
I would really be interested in an answer to this, if anyone has one.
Or are you looking to round up an angry mob of like-minded people so you can all sit around and say, "damn, Thunt never updates on time! Grr, Argh!" Do you maybe just like to hear yourself complain for the sheer sake of complaining?
Is there some other reason I'm overlooking that makes complaining to the forums a productive use of your time?
I would really be interested in an answer to this, if anyone has one.
- friedkitty
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Here's my view of the thread:
It started with newbies, who didn't know and this was their first impression, and our attempt to explain to them, as well as commiserate with their frustration so they would stick with it, to some of us defending their opinion against others who seemed to be impugning their character.
It's bordering on Controversy at this point, so my last post was an attempt to tie it off and kill the thread.
Did it work?
It started with newbies, who didn't know and this was their first impression, and our attempt to explain to them, as well as commiserate with their frustration so they would stick with it, to some of us defending their opinion against others who seemed to be impugning their character.
It's bordering on Controversy at this point, so my last post was an attempt to tie it off and kill the thread.
Did it work?
- RidcullyJack
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
People spend large amounts of their time complaining about DOMA, homeophathy, vaccination, their spouses and a zillion other things on internet forums, including this one, to people who can't do anything about it. Complaining about Thunt's perceived obligations is no different there.RocketScientist wrote:I think this is at least the hundredth one of these threads I've read over the years, so I have to ask this. What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say." And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.
Or are you looking to round up an angry mob of like-minded people so you can all sit around and say, "damn, Thunt never updates on time! Grr, Argh!" Do you maybe just like to hear yourself complain for the sheer sake of complaining?
Is there some other reason I'm overlooking that makes complaining to the forums a productive use of your time?
I would really be interested in an answer to this, if anyone has one.
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Cathartic venting.RocketScientist wrote:I think this is at least the hundredth one of these threads I've read over the years, so I have to ask this. What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say." And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.
Or are you looking to round up an angry mob of like-minded people so you can all sit around and say, "damn, Thunt never updates on time! Grr, Argh!" Do you maybe just like to hear yourself complain for the sheer sake of complaining?
Is there some other reason I'm overlooking that makes complaining to the forums a productive use of your time?
I would really be interested in an answer to this, if anyone has one.
Besides, complaining about webcomics is about as productive in the scheme of life as any other webcomic discussion (i.e., this entire forum), no?
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
If I have any frustration this would be it. The twitter feed promising an update followed by things completely unrelated to an update followed by more promises about an update followed by silence. Then the update a day later. Seeing as how in the end I got what I wanted (the update) I'm really not too upset about it, but it is amusing to me.And what do we see in his Twitter feed? A promise of an update to his comic, followed by a video of their dog eating...and no new comic.
That said, we have no right to an update, and if you're that upset about it you can 'vote with your wallet' so to speak.
- RidcullyJack
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Seeing Thunt post a video of his dog doesn't bother me at all. He's got to have a life, (or should we chain him to his workdesk?). You're seeing the combination of his personal life and professional life on his Twitter feed; not everything there is going to be posts like:
"Working hard making moar comics for loyal fans. #allworkandnoplay"
"Worked through lunch, but not hungry - chewed off right foot, not needed for drawing. #canibalismbusinessmodel"
"No, the peglegged Minmax chewed off his LEFT foot."
"Oh no, need to draw a right foot! This is awkward."
"Working hard making moar comics for loyal fans. #allworkandnoplay"
"Worked through lunch, but not hungry - chewed off right foot, not needed for drawing. #canibalismbusinessmodel"
"No, the peglegged Minmax chewed off his LEFT foot."
"Oh no, need to draw a right foot! This is awkward."
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- SeeAMoose
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
In any other forum, I would probably have people call me a rabid fanboy for the following post. Surprisingly though, Goblins isn't my favorite comic. The reason I volunteer so much time and energy to this community is because the community that has grown around this comic is incredible, and the artist engages directly and very personally with his fan base. That is something worthy of supporting.
If this seems highly defensive of Thunt, it is because I have moderated the chat back when Thunt would broadcast more regularly. Anytime an update was late (and many times before it was due in his time zone) a large number of people would come into the chat to complain. Some were very polite, others were belligerent and insulting to anyone who tried to tell them that Thunt was working very hard on the update and that he would have it up as soon as possible. In short, I have heard every single tack on this issue, and frankly it's tiring. More than that, more often than not, the people who start these kinds of threads are very aggressive about their views. That said, I will admit that for the first 2 and a half pages this is one of the most polite and thoughtful ones I have seen.
I think what Thunt needs to do is begin broadcasting more often, so that people can see what goes into each page of the comic. At one point we had 6 separate statuses for different stages of drawing the comic: Penciling, Inking, Shading(more ink base line enhancements), coloring, adding text, and detailing). Since he got the tablet, he has added a new step to the front end that is essentially presketching. That way you can see exactly what his progress is, and in general people were less aggressive while he was broadcasting. Once you see exactly what goes into a page I think it becomes much more clear why things take so long.
In response to those who say Thunt needs to leave off detailing and stop focusing on improving the quality of the art, art is very important to some readers. Saying that the artwork doesn't matter is inaccurate. Additionally, one cannot improve without pushing one's limits.
Regarding the main argument about Thunt doing a poor job following up on delayed updates. This is a very valid point. He used to be better about it when he was broadcasting, that has changed in the past year or so. Personally, I think he is deeply disappointed in himself every time he misses an update and is too ashamed to admit it sometimes.
You are grossly misrepresenting the situation here. Show me where Thunt says that the money from the current Tempts Fate was meant to let him spend more time on the comic? Anywhere at all? Still having trouble? Perhaps it is because you are framing this as if Thunt was using the same framework as he used for his early Tempts Fate drives way back in 2008 and 2009. Those drives were intended to help him offset the time he was taking off of work to work on the comic. In 2008 he held 5 drives, bringing in a total $3536.04 before any fees or taxes. In 2009 Tempts Fate brought in $9124.43. All of those drives appear to have been of the same sort, they were intended to give him the flexibility he needed to take off from work and spend more time on the comic. TF 9 was the last Tempts with that general goal. In 2010, there was TF10, which had an entirely different purpose, offsetting travel expenses from a failed attempt to visit a con. Finally we have TF11, the source of most of the controversy.
Recap: Thunt's landlord was going to sell the house Thunt and Danielle were renting. Thunt specifically decided against having a Tempts Fate drive to help pay for a house at this point and instead worked out a deal with the landlord where they could start saving money for a downpayment on the house. Then the bank let Thunt know that they are going to foreclose on the house. This is the point that Thunt came to the fanbase, and only after a number of people emailed him telling him he should do so. The stated purpose of the TF drive was to get enough money to make a downpayment on a house, not a mortgage payment. All donations were entirely voluntary and carried the bonus of possible loot. A successful drive would result in Tempts Fate confronting and defeating 4 challenges. Currently there have been 4 updates to the Tempts Fate drive (5 including the Search for Tempts Fate), and while the arc isn't finished, Thunt has tried to make up for it by doing extra.
Your comparison is more flawed than the one you are critiquing. At no point did he EVER say that Tempts Fate 11 would give him more free time to work on the comic.
Is he human? Yes, is he perfect no. You have to do what you can with what's available.
If this is at all rambling, my apologies, it has been a very long week and I'm very tired.
If this seems highly defensive of Thunt, it is because I have moderated the chat back when Thunt would broadcast more regularly. Anytime an update was late (and many times before it was due in his time zone) a large number of people would come into the chat to complain. Some were very polite, others were belligerent and insulting to anyone who tried to tell them that Thunt was working very hard on the update and that he would have it up as soon as possible. In short, I have heard every single tack on this issue, and frankly it's tiring. More than that, more often than not, the people who start these kinds of threads are very aggressive about their views. That said, I will admit that for the first 2 and a half pages this is one of the most polite and thoughtful ones I have seen.
I think what Thunt needs to do is begin broadcasting more often, so that people can see what goes into each page of the comic. At one point we had 6 separate statuses for different stages of drawing the comic: Penciling, Inking, Shading(more ink base line enhancements), coloring, adding text, and detailing). Since he got the tablet, he has added a new step to the front end that is essentially presketching. That way you can see exactly what his progress is, and in general people were less aggressive while he was broadcasting. Once you see exactly what goes into a page I think it becomes much more clear why things take so long.
In response to those who say Thunt needs to leave off detailing and stop focusing on improving the quality of the art, art is very important to some readers. Saying that the artwork doesn't matter is inaccurate. Additionally, one cannot improve without pushing one's limits.
Regarding the main argument about Thunt doing a poor job following up on delayed updates. This is a very valid point. He used to be better about it when he was broadcasting, that has changed in the past year or so. Personally, I think he is deeply disappointed in himself every time he misses an update and is too ashamed to admit it sometimes.
LordsBreed wrote:brnforce wrote:mustache_man wrote: Meh. He may not understand donations, but some people have trouble understanding the concept of jobs and business in general. He may have been a little rough on the delivering (okay, ... a lot), but he was pretty much spot on. The comic itself is free, but it's paid for when we donate to Tempts, the kickstarter and when we buy books and stuff. Thunts makes a living out of it. If nobody donated we would either not have a comic or Thunt would still be working a day job. So yes, it's paid for, just not directly and not by everyone. The comic drives everything else. Be honest, almost nobody donated because of Tempts Fate, they did it because it sustained the comic.
So because people choose to donate for the wrong reasons they should now feel entitled to non-related items? "I bought a poster from you so now I want you to put out a new book every year Mr. Author."
Look, I understand the frustration that people have here. This was my initial reaction to all of this too. There comes a point however, that you have to get over that and realize that you are not entitled to any of this. If Goblins never updated again, you wouldn't be owed anything. My main points in this thread are aimed at helping some of you transition to a point where these things don't upset you anymore. That is the most conducive mindset to have and really enjoy this product.
There is a world of difference between buying a poster from someone, and paying someone's mortgage. For your flawed comparison to make sense and be comparable, here's how it would have happened.
GUY: "Hey author, how come you don't write more books?"
AUTHOR: "I have to work to pay more mortgage, so I don't have free time to write."
GUY: "Well.. how about I pay your mortgage? Will you write more books then?"
AUTHOR: "Of course! I'd have lots of free time, not having to work, so I could write books all the time!"
GUY: "Sounds like a deal!"
Two months later..
GUY: "So, how's the book coming along?"
AUTHOR:" Huh? Oh. Hi there. Sorry I didn't write a new book yet. I haven't had time.."
GUY: "The hell...?!"
You are grossly misrepresenting the situation here. Show me where Thunt says that the money from the current Tempts Fate was meant to let him spend more time on the comic? Anywhere at all? Still having trouble? Perhaps it is because you are framing this as if Thunt was using the same framework as he used for his early Tempts Fate drives way back in 2008 and 2009. Those drives were intended to help him offset the time he was taking off of work to work on the comic. In 2008 he held 5 drives, bringing in a total $3536.04 before any fees or taxes. In 2009 Tempts Fate brought in $9124.43. All of those drives appear to have been of the same sort, they were intended to give him the flexibility he needed to take off from work and spend more time on the comic. TF 9 was the last Tempts with that general goal. In 2010, there was TF10, which had an entirely different purpose, offsetting travel expenses from a failed attempt to visit a con. Finally we have TF11, the source of most of the controversy.
Recap: Thunt's landlord was going to sell the house Thunt and Danielle were renting. Thunt specifically decided against having a Tempts Fate drive to help pay for a house at this point and instead worked out a deal with the landlord where they could start saving money for a downpayment on the house. Then the bank let Thunt know that they are going to foreclose on the house. This is the point that Thunt came to the fanbase, and only after a number of people emailed him telling him he should do so. The stated purpose of the TF drive was to get enough money to make a downpayment on a house, not a mortgage payment. All donations were entirely voluntary and carried the bonus of possible loot. A successful drive would result in Tempts Fate confronting and defeating 4 challenges. Currently there have been 4 updates to the Tempts Fate drive (5 including the Search for Tempts Fate), and while the arc isn't finished, Thunt has tried to make up for it by doing extra.
Your comparison is more flawed than the one you are critiquing. At no point did he EVER say that Tempts Fate 11 would give him more free time to work on the comic.
Is he human? Yes, is he perfect no. You have to do what you can with what's available.
If this is at all rambling, my apologies, it has been a very long week and I'm very tired.
I am one of the forum admins and chat moderators. Drop any of us a line if you ever need a hand in either the forum or the chat.
You can reach me at AdminMoose@goblinsforum.com or at BotWalter@gmail.com
You can reach me at AdminMoose@goblinsforum.com or at BotWalter@gmail.com
- unkultur
- Mumbles Incoherently
- Posts: 11
Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Hello again,RocketScientist wrote:I think this is at least the hundredth one of these threads I've read over the years, so I have to ask this. What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say." And if so, wouldn't it be more likely for him to see a Tweet or an e-mail addressed specifically to him? He doesn't spend all his time reading the forums, since he's busy making comics, card games, etc. So unless he happens to read the thread when he stops by sometime, you're just complaining to people who have no control over the situation.
Or are you looking to round up an angry mob of like-minded people so you can all sit around and say, "damn, Thunt never updates on time! Grr, Argh!" Do you maybe just like to hear yourself complain for the sheer sake of complaining?
Is there some other reason I'm overlooking that makes complaining to the forums a productive use of your time?
I would really be interested in an answer to this, if anyone has one.
now how to start...
1. As a looooong-time lurker, I saw more than a few outbreaks of frustration/anger because of late updates. I do not remember any threads solely (or at least mostly) referring to Thunt's unreliability concerning announcements-of-updates. This thread's title came as a question, so people answered to it. And, (sorry for repeating myself, it will happen again) this thread has given a premise in it's title "understandable, but..." every forumist by posting commited himself to - this was not (often) the case before, was it? So, the notion of "angry-mob-summoning" seems a bit far-fetched to me. Looking at the many first-time-posters, this seems to have made up a setting in which ppl thought they could speak about the reasons for their frustrations without being regarded as fiendish "you're late, b*tch"-naggers. Which worked out fine, but not for long.
2. Any forum is a place where a community shares thoughts on a joint topic. The most general topic is the comic itself, with it's terms of being created and such. The thoughts may take all kind of forms.
(i) Remember when everybody posted how sad he was because of the death of Klik/Chief? That was not about how Thunt should read this and calling out for big resurrection time. It was about feelings.
(ii) now, when not-so-few are talking about their frustrations, it's not (mainly) about making Thunt change his way of communicating updates. It's primarily about - feelings. So what? While the feelings in (i) are caused by in-comic-events, the feelings in (ii) are caused by how the author of said comic communicates the update-events of this comic. A fair enough topic.
(During the discussion of how the frustrations may be licensed considering linguistics, "commissive-speech-acts" were brought up. There are "expressive-speech-acts", also, and this is what ppl were doing in (i) as well in (ii). That's ok, I guess).
3. Is this whole discussion totally pointless, then? Besides cathartic therapy? Well - it maybe a bit odd to quote oneself, but (with friendly assistance of PseudoFenton) I surely developed an additional point of view:
So, Iunkultur wrote:In strict reading, any "x will be done by time y" is interpreted as a self-commitment of the speaker to have x done by time y. This stuff is part of my job at the moment, so bear with me I DO actually see (now) that there is a benevolent interpretation possible, something like "x will be done by time y" translates to "I am trying hard to get x done by then but maybe I won't make it on time for a reason (which I tell you about (later))" That's fine, it's just not the interpretation I'm used to. ... But hey, benevolence is a nice trait, so why not give it a try?
(i) stated a feeling related to the periphery of the comic itself,
(ii) tried to explain and defend it,
(iii) even if still believing my initial emotive response is justified came up with a different point of view on this issue.
Constituting some form of mutual understanding is supposed to be a good thing, and even discussions like this are capable of binding a community together (not that different points of view are to be totally overcome, but to open up for some kind of understanding them)
This being said, good morning Western Europe.
If something sounds VERY odd or seems to make no sense at all: Not a native speaker, so let's try to puzzle it out rather than get all about it, no?
EDIT: Fixed one, possibly not all, stupid typo(s).
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- Remains Silent
- Posts: 5
Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Umm.. yes... that's exactly what I'm hoping... As a small business owner who relies totally on the good-will of his fans, I would think he would read feedback, and at least consider the points made in this thread...RocketScientist wrote:What is the point of posting complaints about the update schedule in the forums? Are you hoping Thunt will read the thread, and say, "gee, you're right. I will do just what you say."
I want more comics... I will buy every book he publishes. I will not buy a board game based on this comic. That's only one small data point, but it's certainly useful feedback...
- Wolfie
- She Who Admins
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Not to get picky here, but if Thunt were to take time from making the comic to read complaints about him taking time from making the comic... what would that accomplish? beyond frustrating him further because he takes on too much as it is.
The comic is free and he does it out of love.
The comic is free and he does it out of love.
"This is my therapy dragon, she's for my panic attacks. I attack, everyone panics." (Quote found on http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/)
"If I have a +2 strength sword and I stab you, you won't get a +2 strength, you get wounds" ~Sir Butcher
"How few there are who have courage enough to own their faults, or resolution enough to mend them." ~Benjamin Franklin
"If I have a +2 strength sword and I stab you, you won't get a +2 strength, you get wounds" ~Sir Butcher
"How few there are who have courage enough to own their faults, or resolution enough to mend them." ~Benjamin Franklin
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
There's a saying. You can have things two of three ways: fast, good, or cheap.
Since we already have this cheap, that leaves fast or good.
If he makes it fast, it won't be good.
If he makes it good, it won't be fast.
Since we already have this cheap, that leaves fast or good.
If he makes it fast, it won't be good.
If he makes it good, it won't be fast.
- Liesmith
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
Well, we all know that the Darksied is stronger. Maybe he should give in to his emotions, let the hate flow through him, and do the comic out of rage?Wolfie wrote:Not to get picky here, but if Thunt were to take time from making the comic to read complaints about him taking time from making the comic... what would that accomplish? beyond frustrating him further because he takes on too much as it is.
The comic is free and he does it out of love.
I think he has plenty of excuses; it's like every time he starts to get on top of the update schedule, it shifts underneath him. First the website dies, then the Kickstarter gets rolling (far in advance of when we ever heard of it, I'm sure), then there're legal troubles, then the website dies, then the Kickstarter suffers blunt-force-trauma from the phat stacks of cash being thrown at it and he has complete artwork for every stretch goal ever, then there's animated series deal on Adult Swim (if I say it enough, it'll come true). I hope Thunt makes enough from GAR that he can take a financial breather soon, and just focus on getting into a routine with the comic.
"All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy. That's how far the world is from where I am. Just one bad day. You had a bad day once. Am I right? I know I am. I can tell. You had a bad day and everything changed."
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?
I want it on HBO so it can be more graphic.Liesmith wrote:...then there's animated series deal on Adult Swim (if I say it enough, it'll come true). ...