Understandable, yet Frustrating?

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PseudoFenton
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by PseudoFenton » Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:12 am

The Rotting King wrote:Thunt could update once a month if he felt like it. I'd still read Goblins, and with as much enjoyment as I do now. Considering how much stuff he's working on currently, I personally don't consider the little update schedule thing at the top of the screen to be anything more than a somewhat optimistic guideline. I'll take late updates with the usual brilliant art and story over sloppier, on-time ones any day, regardless.
+1.

Really, with other comics out there which don't have advertisement, update infrequently, and have minimal contact with the author - but still make a living out of it - I think there are a few too many here happy to inflate their own beliefs to the point of self-induced fear. New readers are likely to start from the start, they can enjoy and support the comic regardless of adds or regular updates (should they like it), and everything else follows.

"Make good art" should be your only concern when you're an artist - which Thunt is. The fact that there is such a huge backlog of comics, for free, all with good art in them (which has been steadily improving over time) means that he is doing what matters.

Frustrating as it may be to be told one thing and still have 'late' comics, consider how frustrating it would be if you were told Goblins would never update again ever. Is your frustration because of the perceived 'lateness', or simply because you want more of what Thunt is making and are forced to wait (and seemingly toyed with false predictions on when you can have more)?
If it truly is the lateness that offends and annoys you then fine, perhaps it is detrimental to some (I say some because more than enough people have said that this is not the case for them) - however I'd be willing to bet that it is not the lateness, but the high desire to have the newest strip that is causing the frustration.

It is not the waiting whilst you hunger that's the problem, it is the suddenly empty plate when you were enjoying the meal. Yes you may not be full yet, and yes you have to wait and be taunted with fresh meals taken past your table, but please remember that you've already experienced a pleasant meal and that the chef can only cook so fast - if you want equally tasty food as what you just had.

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unkultur
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by unkultur » Fri Jun 21, 2013 4:21 am

PseudoFenton wrote:
unkultur wrote:
PseudoFenton wrote:Friend says "gonna call you later this evening" (I dont pay for that, he has not to, he has other things to do which he gets paid for) - as time passes, one is sitting, waiting for the call. The feeling is quite different from just sitting there without any precedent announcement.
Okay, I can understand your stance here - however I think this is an unfair analogy. Thunt is not a friend saying he'll show up for a party and then never turning up (or turning up really late once the party is basically over). Nor is he even a brother offering you a lift so you can get to your party on time, but doesn't show up till late and therefore has wasted your time in waiting and prevented you from having fun you would've had should he have kept to his obligations. He isn't even that performer you hired for the party, who then shows up late and ruins the evening because he was meant to be there at the cutting of the cake, not an hour afterwards.

What Thunt is, in this party analogy, is the father who says they'll do the dishes before the party so that the kitchen is cleared up before guest start arriving - however instead he did the laundry and tidied that up instead. Yes the kitchen is full of dirty dishes now, but the house is still tidier than it would've been, and to be fair, you didn't need the kitchen cleared because you were using it at all - nor were you waiting specifically on that to get done so you could have fun, and nor was its lateness in any major way impacting how enjoyable the party was - it was merely unideal to have had a dirty kitchen.

The comic is not a friend that you're waiting to hang out with - the time of the comics posting doesn't detriment any other fun you could be having in the mean time - and its lateness does not impact the enjoyability of the comic in any way (its still as pretty and funny one month after being posted as it is one minute after being posted). What the comic is, is a tidy kitchen, an enjoyable slice of clam that you'd consume and appreciate in your own time and your own way - and a fleeting one at that, as shortly there after you'll want another comic because you want to know what comes next (or, you'll put a dirty dish in the sink and make a sandwich on the side, and need to tidy up again... for the kitchen this is, not the comic).
I was halfway back all the way to lurking-land when I realized your not-so-short-post. So, no beating dead horses, but would'nt it be most impolite not to react in any way? I can see that my analogy may be considered a bit off (or worse: unfair). Possible reason(s) I could think of: a) Maybe (or probably) I'm still stuck to the "commissive-speech-act"-thing. In strict reading, any "x will be done by time y" is interpreted as a self-commitment of the speaker to have x done by time y. This stuff is part of my job at the moment, so bear with me :roll: I DO actually see (now) that there is a benevolent interpretation possible, something like "x will be done by time y" translates to "I am trying hard to get x done by then but maybe I won't make it on time for a reason (which I tell you about (later))" That's fine, it's just not the interpretation I'm used to. (I'm with
Changes_everything wrote:it is [...] a universal rule of human interaction
).
But hey, benevolence is a nice trait, so why not give it a try? o:)
The other reason b) is, that I got taken away. This whole thing started just as a commitment, yes, I am one of the frustrated ones. Not all the time, but sometimes. I felt this special thread was the right place to commit something like that, because of the premise given in the title "UNDERSTANDABLE, but..." made pretty much clear that we, including myself, do understand that we have to wait for updates. Sometimes (in earlier threads referring to late updates) it seemed to me like sometimes being frustrated with late or lack of updates was put on a level with being disrespectful towards Thunt. I then tried to explain that this is not the case, but that the frustration derives from (somehow interpreted) utterances.

PseudoFenton wrote:So, can we treat Thunt like the father who thought you'd prefer a tidy bedroom in case any of your friends wanted to snoop around in there - and therefore is still doing the dishes when your friends arrive for the party. Yes, its less ideal, yes he said it'd be done and it wasn't - and yes its frustrating and embarrassing to have a dirty kitchen and have to wait for it to get clear... but that doesn't stop the party being fun or your room being tidy - or, to drop the heavily laboured analogy now - it doesn't stop the comic being fun and produced at a much higher quality than it would've otherwise been should the dishes have been done the comic have been up 'on-time'.
To me, the comic never stopped being fun, anyways. In above analogy, I'm more like the kid whose father told him "I'll tell you a bedtime story tomorrow" and then...you know what :'( (the story, when told, will be great, for sure)
What did you say? Time to grow some b...eard and grow up?
Ok. I'll give it a chance.

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PseudoFenton
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by PseudoFenton » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:07 pm

unkultur wrote:but would'nt it be most impolite not to react in any way?
I'm glad you've come away with a fresh view point, and I'm glad you took the time to reply and say as such - I appreciate it a lot.

Also, you raise a good point, noone is trolling or mud-slinging here - they're just airing their frustrations. Which is completely acceptable to do, everyone gets frustrated from time to time, and its well within their rights to do so. I don't want to say that people shouldn't be frustrated, as that isn't fair on those who are justifiably wound up.

I'd hope, however, that the people who are feeling this way will be able to take a new mindset away from this which helps them avoid that feeling in future, like you have. For those of who can't, I can only sympathise, and I'm sure we're all willing to lend an ear so you can vent from time to time (so long as you do so in the same polite way as most have here).

Also, for those who havn't seen it yet, Thunt just finished a video that has been claiming some of his time to produce. It does have Klick with the Axe of Prissan in it, which makes it entirely worth any amount of time in my opinion. The video can be found here.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Shazam » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:39 pm

Occams Meataxe wrote:This is another reason - besides the fact that I like the clean standard look - that I'm not a great fan of the shaded version of Goblins. Thunt keep slipping further behind with the simpler comic. What the shading adds to the story and overall enjoyment is marginal and costs many, many hours to each comic. He gets worn out and further behind.
At the end, this poster says 'the best is the enemy of the good'. In any small business you have to be able to say 'it's good enough'. In software coders love to work and work and add details and functionality. The product lead has to be able to strip it down to what is 'good enough'. Goblins is a business for Thunt. Yes it's putatively free, but it's paid for his house and ongoing continues to pay him. While it's reasonable to say "It's free", in reality that's only a small part of the story.

I've long thought about the fact that a lot of webcomic artists and just artists in general as they become more familiar with their craft also become faster. I suspect Thunt has to a degree too. The problem is, Thunt keeps trying to add features, he makes his art more detailed, he adds the shading. These things don't improve the story, they do improve the look but they don't add as much 'value' to the readers as another page. Frankly the story is great but it drags, it progresses far too slow.

What BF gave him was a forced schedule, they acted as the product manager. He still found ways not to keep it. What he should have been doing was stripping out the extraneous 'features' and focusing on the core product. I say this as someone who has contracted with many artists for business, and manged teams of coders and salespeople.

It's totally reasonable to want to add more complexity, but not until your skills have allowed you to maintain consistency and deliverables as promised. Then you can over deliver in terms of features. But any business has to focus on reliability and 'good enough' core product.
Occams Meataxe wrote:I have to echo the "Tempts Fate" concerns. If people pay you for something and you keep blowing it off eventually they will stop paying you. Yes, he does a great comic. But when something's promised and consistently not delivered it reduces a person's credibility.
...
Looking at indie comic artists, webcomic artists and writers who make a living at their art the one common denominator is consistency. Maybe not everything is perfect, but the quality is good enough, and it arrives at predictable intervals. Oh, maybe the schedule slips when the colorist has a sudden cardiac event (Girl Genius) or the artist gouges his drawing hand (Questionable Content) or gets a diagnosis of metastatic cancer (Ian Banks). But those are exceptional events, interruptions to the routine. It's the consistent delivery of a good enough product that gives one a chance at sustained success.

Summary:
1) Best is the enemy of good
2) Consistency is very important if you want to make a living at this
3) When you promise something, deliver even if there's no binding, notarized contract. Otherwise people will lose interest.
It is a bit of a strawman to say 'the comic is free'. It is more accurate to say 'The comic is Thunt's livelihood'. It is also accurate to say that Thunt keeps

a) Adding complexity to comic art, rather than use his increasing skills to turn out a more reliable comic with a faster turnaround
b) Takes money for things which distract from the core product of the comic and delay it further
c) Doesn't always deliver on promises made for money taken

If the comic is Thunt's livelihood, he should be focusing on how to deliver it reliably. Period. That's only good business. If he makes money by selling comic books, he should be trying to turn out more pages in a reliable way. Where he's made a lot of his money are essentially pledge drives though, these don't depend on reliability and they are a short cut from the discipline of running a business that depends on good will of your community. What's great is Thunt has that good will. It's clear though he's also beginning to lose some trust by this thread and the responses.

I'm in the same boat as many others. I enjoy the comic, I enjoy the community, I admire Thunt as a webcomic artist. My trust though is diminished. I'm still sitting and looking at the Kickstarter and wondering if I should join in, and I would have a couple years ago no problem. Now, it just seems to be a distraction from the comic, and the comic itself has been too irregular. It needs that regularity and frankly I'd love it to be faster so some of these stories can really progress more, and I won't need to wait years for them to progress in a meaningful way.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Shazam » Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:58 pm

I'm going to append my post with another rather than edit it. My above post is rather assertive. Please take it solely as my opinion, having built small businesses. In the end, whether art or anything else Goblins is not just a labor of love, it is a business. When you use Gmail, it's free, but you expect a certain reliability due to it being a business.

I wish all the best for Thunt, including his business being even more bountiful for him and his family and more rich for its consumers. So again apologies if the above came off strident, it's just strongly held opinion from many years helping small businesses grow, as well as from a reader who would indeed be more engaged if the comic could deliver that more reliable and ideally faster schedule. If not, it is what it is. It's Thunt's comic. It's wonderful to see how the community is able to engage though without it turning into personal and vitriolic attacks on one another! That's rare.

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Occams Meataxe
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Occams Meataxe » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:22 pm

I'm afraid Shazam is right. The video, the kickstarter, the shading and a number of other things are distractions from the core business of making a web comic that will hold an increasing or at least steady number of viewers' attention. All they will do is add time demands of their own and make the regular comic later. If he wants this to be his business he will have to make getting a good enough comic on a regular schedule his priority.Keeping the story moving along with good enough art is what needs to happen. Adding more extras, bells and whistles is precisely the wrong thing to do.

I've seen this sort of thing happen in other businesses. Almost none of them survived the process. And it would be a real shame if this happened to Goblins. If Thunt can get productivity up to scratch he has a good chance at making this work and having the luxury of adding some of the other features later.

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Occams Meataxe
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Occams Meataxe » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:28 pm

Shazam wrote:In software coders love to work and work and add details and functionality. The product lead has to be able to strip it down to what is 'good enough'.
It's been called the Creeping Feature Creature. And it has devoured more projects than I can count.
It's totally reasonable to want to add more complexity, but not until your skills have allowed you to maintain consistency and deliverables as promised. Then you can over deliver in terms of features. But any business has to focus on reliability and 'good enough' core product.
Under-delivering on promises while adding extraneous features, no matter how cool and beautiful, is not the way to stay in business.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Thrudh » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:29 pm

Problem is, above Tempts Fate and Alternate Realities, my fondness is for the comic. So he is in effect asking for money for something which will delay the thing I like the most. To me that just makes no sense.

Now the comics? I will pay for those.
This. I have zero interest in Tempts Fate and the Kickstarter game... I'm sad that the comic is going to take a hit for quite a few months while he finishes up all his Kickstarter obligations.

Release Book 3 and Book 4, and I will buy them, no matter how much Thunt charges. I will happily give him money for this masterpiece of a story. Plus buying books incents him to release comics faster so he can release books faster :)

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Sushulana
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Sushulana » Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:02 pm

Well, yeah, Tempts Fate and all the rest were distractions, but that's just me.

I can't read a comic like this one page at a time, so I don't hang around and click the thing every day that there is supposed to be a new page. No, before you start, I LOVE this story, but that's not the point.
I click on once every few weeks or so. That way I can see several pages at a time and the flow is better anyway.
Learned that trick wile following Looking for Group. That's another good one but not in this league.

Helps keep me from getting huffy at people giving me something for free, too. ;)

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by LordsBreed » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:57 pm

My personal pet peeve is that it looks like he was coloring and shading the previous update before he works on the new one.

We all think it looks good, but we've seen. The time would be better spent (to us as readers) working on the next strip and then shading once it's done. Instead of shading last week's first and updating late.
Image

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Old-Friend » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:40 pm

Guys, I don't think the schedule is the issue here. I personally am fine with waiting a few months and as the thread title suggests, it is understandable. What the problem is, is when Thunt says he is going to do something and does not do it. It would be perfectly fine if he even said the comic would update once a year or something like that. But I think what the OP was talking about was that Thunt says he would do something and not do it. Plus, as other people said, the people who donated to Tempts-Fate deserve what they paid for two years ago. I personally am fine with him not abiding by this, as I have not donated to the Tempts Drive, but I get how frustrating it can be to have someone say he will do something than not follow through on the promise.

Thunt does not owe me anything. But he does owe these fans, and if it takes the same amount of time to get the card games as it will to finish Tempts 11, I may want my money back. Thunt is a nice guy, who is extremely talented. But I get why some people can get frustrated.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by dire18 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:21 pm

I'm another lurker drawn out of the woodwork by this topic.

So, a bit of context first. I check the forums occasionally to try and find info regarding late/missed comic updates when they happen, which is how I saw this topic. When I saw a topic with the word "frustrating" in it, it drew me in...because I assumed it was over late/missed comic updates. I know what I'm about to say is going to come across as SO entitled and whiny, but it's the honest assessment of how I feel so I'm going to take that plunge and hope this is neither perceived as nor draws firebombing.

I'm in the camp that does find the experience of missed updates something that erodes my enjoyment of the comic. I know it's totally unfair to have this perception, considering I pay nothing for each individual page. I genuinely wish it didn't make me think less of the experience of reading Goblins, which is a genuinely awesome comic. I've gotten my older brother, my dad, and an ex-boyfriend all hooked on it. It's because of this great admiration that my attitude on its update schedule has gone from mildly bummed when an update is skipped to really kinda cynical about it due to the frequency it seems to happen. I just lack that ability to separate my frustration with the update schedule from the experience of reading the story itself. I also find all the other non-comic items going on superfluous and annoying (I'm sorry! D:) for detracting from the product I'm most interested in: the comic itself. I'm not a G:AR supporter because on principle it bothers me that it detracts from the story progressing (again, I'm sorry D:) and that compels me to not want to throw support behind it. If the campaign didn't impede the comic, I'd approach it totally differently.

Again, I am fully aware this is really a lame attitude to take toward a product I get for free (side note: I would gladly pay for Goblins if it were a subscription based thing and that was the only way to read it, I think it's that good) that I otherwise love. But in the spirit of trying to be communicative, I wanted to share my thoughts and honestly just vent a little, because this has been growing on my mind since I started reading Goblins (I'm relatively new to it, I only started reading with Chief first faced Kore at the bridge). If the comic wasn't so awesome, I'd have no qualms and just be all whatevs toward the update frequency. As it is, if an update is claimed to be going up on a certain date and doesn't do it, I feel disappointed and a little let down, even if I have no right to feel that way. At this point, it has chipped away at my enthusiasm toward the comic in general despite the quality of each page still remaining solid.

Quick edit: One of my pet peeves is people who complain who without providing at least some idea of a solution to their criticism. I would be happy to see the update schedule go from specific dates that are frequently missed to something more ambiguous, so that I wouldn't feel left hanging when I checked the site to see a new page not up yet.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by The HellJack » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:44 pm

Hi there.

I've been a lurker for quite some time now. I believe I registered on the last forum board.

Here's what frustrates me. This comic isn't free anymore.

We paid for it.

Tarol announced a good, long time ago that the reason for his lack of updates was the fact that he worked a full time job on top of doing the Goblins comic. Then, he made the leap of faith, quit his job, and devoted himself to doing the Comic full time.

Anyone who donated to Tempts Fate and ended up buying Tarol & Danielle a house paid for the comic.

Tarol is infamous for not meeting deadlines. From the first time that he missed the special update he promised from Tempts Fate, to almost every single scheduled comic update that he misses, to now where he plans on putting up the Countdown Shield thing...it's the second most common thing known about him. The first being a great artist and writer who produced a quality webcomic.

But it's not free. Not anymore. We've paid for it.

I donated to various Tempts Fate comics, and I'm currently backing his Kickstarter.

And what do we see in his Twitter feed? A promise of an update to his comic, followed by a video of their dog eating...and no new comic.

This is his job now. He keeps setting deadlines, and he keeps breaking them...and he will continue to have rabid support from the fanbase.

Stop writing checks your butt can't cash, Tarol. Be honest with the people who bought you a house.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by brnforce » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:36 am

The HellJack wrote: But it's not free. Not anymore. We've paid for it.
Lol. You really don't understand donations do you? You may have paid for Tempts Fate, but you have never paid for the Goblins webcomic to be produced.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by mustache_man » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:30 am

brnforce wrote:
The HellJack wrote: But it's not free. Not anymore. We've paid for it.
Lol. You really don't understand donations do you? You may have paid for Tempts Fate, but you have never paid for the Goblins webcomic to be produced.
Meh. He may not understand donations, but some people have trouble understanding the concept of jobs and business in general. He may have been a little rough on the delivering (okay, ... a lot), but he was pretty much spot on. The comic itself is free, but it's paid for when we donate to Tempts, the kickstarter and when we buy books and stuff. Thunts makes a living out of it. If nobody donated we would either not have a comic or Thunt would still be working a day job. So yes, it's paid for, just not directly and not by everyone. The comic drives everything else. Be honest, almost nobody donated because of Tempts Fate, they did it because it sustained the comic.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by The HellJack » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:01 am

Yeah, sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I sort of only know of the one way to express myself. (it actually cost me a job in radio once)

I've been a bit perturbed since the Tempts Fate with the bonus update as one of the goals. That never happened.

Heck, Tarol didn't even finish that last Tempts Fate.

Now, take this from the very first Tempts Fate:
Donations obtained are used to help cover the financial burden that builds up from taking time off of my day job to work on Goblins. It is NOT mandatory for any reader to donate money. Goblins is a free webcomic and donations are optional. That being said, with the amount of time needed to keep Goblins going, I simply wouldn't be able to keep up this pace without the generousity and support of the readers who donate...
Now I dig that. He comes right out and states "You don't have to, but if you don't I won't be able to keep updating like I have". He doesn't say "I will update". He carefully avoids saying that.

I do, in fact, know how donations work. I also know how fanbases work, so I know I'm in for some eventual crud.

I support Tarol. I have, and am now, and I will probably do so in the future. I really just want Tarol to stop with the deadlines he rarely meets.

How long did donators have to wait for their Bloodbranch sheets?

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Krulle » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:10 am

The HellJack wrote:Yeah, sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings. I sort of only know of the one way to express myself. (it actually cost me a job in radio once)

I've been a bit perturbed since the Tempts Fate with the bonus update as one of the goals. That never happened.

Heck, Tarol didn't even finish that last Tempts Fate.
Well, he started to address that issue, by updating the Tempts Fate 11 page to finally include the updates so far.
And recognizing that there is a problem (blog entry) and has started to make amends.

Well, it's good to know that I am not the only one with time management issues.

Also: if you think Thunt has divided his time amongst too many projects:
wait until about 12 months after this Twitter account tweets something positive/affirmative.
I'll bet that this will mess up his schedule quite a bit.
For a while, the positive result will boost his schedule, especially since THunt is pulling all nighters far too often anyway, but the time investments needed will increase and increase for some years to come.
And I do wish to read an affirmative tweet sometime.
► Show Spoiler
Last edited by Krulle on Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Goblinscomic transcriptions
Collection of G:AR cards
STAR CONTROL: The Ur-Quan Masters finally gets a continuation of the story!
it's fully funded, and all realistic stretch goals reached!

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by brnforce » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:11 am

mustache_man wrote: Meh. He may not understand donations, but some people have trouble understanding the concept of jobs and business in general. He may have been a little rough on the delivering (okay, ... a lot), but he was pretty much spot on. The comic itself is free, but it's paid for when we donate to Tempts, the kickstarter and when we buy books and stuff. Thunts makes a living out of it. If nobody donated we would either not have a comic or Thunt would still be working a day job. So yes, it's paid for, just not directly and not by everyone. The comic drives everything else. Be honest, almost nobody donated because of Tempts Fate, they did it because it sustained the comic.

So because people choose to donate for the wrong reasons they should now feel entitled to non-related items? "I bought a poster from you so now I want you to put out a new book every year Mr. Author."

Look, I understand the frustration that people have here. This was my initial reaction to all of this too. There comes a point however, that you have to get over that and realize that you are not entitled to any of this. If Goblins never updated again, you wouldn't be owed anything. My main points in this thread are aimed at helping some of you transition to a point where these things don't upset you anymore. That is the most conducive mindset to have and really enjoy this product.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by mustache_man » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:09 pm

brnforce wrote: So because people choose to donate for the wrong reasons they should now feel entitled to non-related items? "I bought a poster from you so now I want you to put out a new book every year Mr. Author."
Authors don't release a book every year. Not good books anyway. And you don't go buying the same book every other week to support him. in fact, I don't remember any of my favorite book authors ever asking for donations. They get my money once.
brnforce wrote: Look, I understand the frustration that people have here. This was my initial reaction to all of this too. There comes a point however, that you have to get over that and realize that you are not entitled to any of this. If Goblins never updated again, you wouldn't be owed anything. My main points in this thread are aimed at helping some of you transition to a point where these things don't upset you anymore. That is the most conducive mindset to have and really enjoy this product.
I don't think you understand it at all. You're confusing this with entitlement. It's not. If Thunt never released an update ever again, I wouldn't be up in arms. I'd be sad, but I'd get over it and find another cmoic to amuse myself. If he decided to charge a subscription I'd either pay for (and then I'd really feel entitled to regular updates) or move on. What annoys most people (it's what gets ME anyway) is the trend of announcing deadlines and never ever keeping up with them. It just erodes my faith. I probably shouldn't be annoyed by it because by now I know he's not going to stick to his schedule by the time he announces it.

Good for you if you can wire yourself to think this way. I can't. I won't claim that I never missed a deadline at work, but I rarely do and I make a big deal of it when it happens.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by brnforce » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:26 am

mustache_man wrote: I don't think you understand it at all. You're confusing this with entitlement. It's not. If Thunt never released an update ever again, I wouldn't be up in arms. I'd be sad, but I'd get over it and find another cmoic to amuse myself. If he decided to charge a subscription I'd either pay for (and then I'd really feel entitled to regular updates) or move on. What annoys most people (it's what gets ME anyway) is the trend of announcing deadlines and never ever keeping up with them. It just erodes my faith. I probably shouldn't be annoyed by it because by now I know he's not going to stick to his schedule by the time he announces it.

Good for you if you can wire yourself to think this way. I can't. I won't claim that I never missed a deadline at work, but I rarely do and I make a big deal of it when it happens.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now.
It absolutely is entitlement. Or do you randomly get frustrated that baskets of money don't float down from the sky? You think that since it was stated that an update would be on Monday at noon that you are entitled to an update at noon on Monday. You aren't. Let it go.

EDIT to add: Also, you aren't his boss.

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Krulle
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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by Krulle » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:09 am

You know what's really frustrating????

That I keep on coming here every few minutes and expecting something fundamentally new to which I can reply!
Or that I keep refreshing the comic-site when new comics are expected, although I have better things I should do, and not being able to stop myself in anticipation?

I am so frustrated with myself for not being able to leave this great community and this fantastic comic...

And actually, those are some some reasons why I don't want to(that's understandable, I think
Goblinscomic transcriptions
Collection of G:AR cards
STAR CONTROL: The Ur-Quan Masters finally gets a continuation of the story!
it's fully funded, and all realistic stretch goals reached!

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by mustache_man » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:48 am

brnforce wrote:
mustache_man wrote: I don't think you understand it at all. You're confusing this with entitlement. It's not. If Thunt never released an update ever again, I wouldn't be up in arms. I'd be sad, but I'd get over it and find another cmoic to amuse myself. If he decided to charge a subscription I'd either pay for (and then I'd really feel entitled to regular updates) or move on. What annoys most people (it's what gets ME anyway) is the trend of announcing deadlines and never ever keeping up with them. It just erodes my faith. I probably shouldn't be annoyed by it because by now I know he's not going to stick to his schedule by the time he announces it.

Good for you if you can wire yourself to think this way. I can't. I won't claim that I never missed a deadline at work, but I rarely do and I make a big deal of it when it happens.

Anyway, I'll stop ranting now.
It absolutely is entitlement. Or do you randomly get frustrated that baskets of money don't float down from the sky? You think that since it was stated that an update would be on Monday at noon that you are entitled to an update at noon on Monday. You aren't. Let it go.

EDIT to add: Also, you aren't his boss.
I could be wrong and I apologize in advance if that's the case, but it looks like you're trying to get a rise out of me. You set off with wild metaphores and set them up like some form of personal attack.

I don't get frustrated for not having showers of money falling on my scalp. I do get frustrated when I'm promised something and never get it (that's what an announced schedule is, a promise). I'm not hurting anyone by that. You seem under the impression that I mope around all day saddened by the late updates. I don't. I'm frustrated for some 10 seconds and then I get on with my day. The recurrence bothers me enough that I don't donate anymore though. You're not going to change anyone's mind, so let it go yourself. Thunt is going to see this or not, he'll agree or not and he'll change or not. He's a big boy and doesn't need a self appointed paladin to rescue him from all the "meanie heads" from the internet. Plus I don't believe I said anything remotely offensive towards him.

Also, since you HAD to add that last bit, he did have something like a boss until recently and his schedule wasn't any better (by his claims he was bound by contract to update twice a week, before you set off to discuss semantics) .

I'm truly done with that discussion now, but you're welcome to give lessons to someone else using shaky metaphores.

PS: I'm always amazed by how simple discussions about update frequencies tend to draw the very worst out of these forums.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by friedkitty » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:39 am

I am floored that we managed to go three pages with THIS topic and only now do we have an argument going.

There seem to be two camps here. Those who are annoyed and frustrated by the lack of follow through on the promise (or agreement if you will), and those who are mad at us for thinking that we are "entitled" to on time updates.

I have only seen one (maybe two, I haven't gone back through the thread to count) post about the frustration at not getting the comic on time. We don't care if it's late. We understand it will be late, and can be late. It is Thunt's prerogative to post however often he wants. The problem is the lack of follow through on things that are said. If you are looking for a book, and a friend told you, Hey, I have that in my car, I'll go get it and bring it right back." Then they left. Got in their car and drove away. You'd be frustrated. Are you entitled to that book? No. Is it worth losing your friendship over? No. Do you have the right to feel frustrated? Yes. The next day your friend hands you the book. "It was at home, I had to go get it." Are you happy you have the book? Yes. Were you entitled to it? Still no. Is your frustration now unjustified? No. Could the whole situation been avoided had you friend texted you and said, "Sorry It's not here, I'll get it and bring it to you tomorrow." Absolutely. Had your friend not said anything, then handed you the book three days later, would you have been frustrated? No, you'd have been happy to get the book, with no frustration involved.

The issue is not the late update. It is the lack of follow through on something you were told. Frustration is completely justified. Vitriolic anger would not be. Ragequitting would not be. Ranting and Yelling and Insulting people would not be. But simple irritation and frustration is completely understandable, and in no way shows a sense of entitlement.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by brnforce » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:51 pm

mustache_man wrote: I don't get frustrated for not having showers of money falling on my scalp. I do get frustrated when I'm promised something and never get it (that's what an announced schedule is, a promise). I'm not hurting anyone by that. You seem under the impression that I mope around all day saddened by the late updates. I don't. I'm frustrated for some 10 seconds and then I get on with my day. The recurrence bothers me enough that I don't donate anymore though. You're not going to change anyone's mind, so let it go yourself. Thunt is going to see this or not, he'll agree or not and he'll change or not. He's a big boy and doesn't need a self appointed paladin to rescue him from all the "meanie heads" from the internet. Plus I don't believe I said anything remotely offensive towards him.

Also, since you HAD to add that last bit, he did have something like a boss until recently and his schedule wasn't any better (by his claims he was bound by contract to update twice a week, before you set off to discuss semantics) .

I'm truly done with that discussion now, but you're welcome to give lessons to someone else using shaky metaphores.

PS: I'm always amazed by how simple discussions about update frequencies tend to draw the very worst out of these forums.
Psst. Your entitlement is showing right there. Unless you received an email from THunt he didn't promise you anything.

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Re: Understandable, yet Frustrating?

Post by friedkitty » Wed Jun 26, 2013 2:05 pm

brnforce wrote:Psst. Your entitlement is showing right there. Unless you received an email from THunt he didn't promise you anything.
Thunt per his blog wrote:A New Update Schedule

Lets be honest. Goblins is never on time. I mean, sometimes it happens, but not often. Ive been asked many times why dont you slow down the schedule?. Well, without going into too much detail, I couldnt before, but now I can. Heres the deal

For the next two or three weeks, IÔÇÖm going to update the comic once/week. Updates will happen on Mondays at noon PDT (GMT -7). ThisÔÇÖll give me a chance to clean up the mess (regaining control of the site, etc), work on the site redesign, make sure everything is running smoothly with the Kickstarter, finish some more Search For Tempts bonus comics and get the new schedule clock working.
This does not say kind of sorta around Monday. This does not say when I get to it. This does not say I will TRY. This says WILL HAPPEN. And yet it doesn't. Someone told us something would happen. It doesn't. You tell us we have no right to be frustrated. You say we are entitled. No. We have manners and common courtesy, and expect the same in return. We aren't saying it should update every Monday because we want it to. That would be entitlement. We are saying it should update every monday because THAT"S WHAT THUNT SAID!!!! By your logic, everyone in the world should just be able to say whatever they want, and when it doesn't happen you should just suck it up because otherwise you are acting entitled. Gotta call BS on that one. Next time you have a car repair or need something done on time, and it takes a week extra, don't you dare complain. Otherwise you are entitled. Payment has nothing to do with it.

**why do I feel like :wall: ???**

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