The Goblins Fan Forum

I've already poked him on Twitter to ask the forum for advice, and I'm half tempted to do it myself and send an email to the local news stations near Thunt's. I think Thunt's afraid to (if by "afraid" you read it as social anxiety or appearing weak in his own mind; one's own mind can really be a prison sometimes). I tweeted to him "You're Fumbles, being pushed through Brassmoon! Let us be Big Ears here!"

Aegis J Hyena wrote:I've already poked him on Twitter to ask the forum for advice, and I'm half tempted to do it myself and send an email to the local news stations near Thunt's. I think Thunt's afraid to (if by "afraid" you read it as social anxiety or appearing weak in his own mind; one's own mind can really be a prison sometimes). I tweeted to him "You're Fumbles, being pushed through Brassmoon! Let us be Big Ears here!"

Please don't do anything on his behalf, though. Certainly not when there may or may not be legal counsel involved or about to be involved. Encouraging him to do what you think is best is one thing, but emailing people on his behalf is another matter entirely, and should not be done in this instance - it could do more harm than good. We only know what we've been told, and for all we know there's plenty -about- to happen. One well-meaning email (or whatever) could snowball into something entirely different, and if it didn't come from Thunt himself, he won't be prepared or equipped for what happens when people start responding to said email.

Fully agree.
Just don't start anything without his approval.

Aegis J Hyena wrote:I've already poked him on Twitter to ask the forum for advice, and I'm half tempted to do it myself and send an email to the local news stations near Thunt's. I think Thunt's afraid to (if by "afraid" you read it as social anxiety or appearing weak in his own mind; one's own mind can really be a prison sometimes). I tweeted to him "You're Fumbles, being pushed through Brassmoon! Let us be Big Ears here!"

Yeah, if you do something, coordinate with THunt. If everyone goes off on their own doing random stuff to "help" most will get nowhere and some will be counterproductive. Personally I think more people should get involved in this. But instead of doing something random, we should ask Thunt what he wants us to do on his behalf.

Honestly I've been trying to think of ways people could help. The two things I've come are this: 1) help him get legal counsel, perhaps by sending money for this purpose. 2) Send emails to Kickstarter stating our displeasure with their handling of the matter and giving permission to release our backer information to Thunt. If done in large quantities it might actually do something. But neither should be done without Thunt asking for it.

There's just one more person that needs to get involved, and that's a lawyer.

For all we know there IS one involved, or discussions with one are underway, or whatever.

That's why I keep insisting that we should remain quietly supportive. From the spectator stands. Rather than mounting a pitch invasion. At the risk of mixing seven different sports metaphors, Thunt needs cheerleaders, not coaches or players. We as fans should be willing to stand in his corner waving flags and reading his comic and giving him the thumbs up when he looks like he's struggling... we should not start fighting that corner for him. That will get him disqualified.

The problem is Evertide uses the funds from G:AR to fund previous games he made. A lawsuit can be filed by anyone harmed in the lack of game and it can turn class action against both Richard and kickstarter. Just because a claim that there is risk does not absolve Kickstarter not Evertide from fault in the transaction.

With that said some background on me. I am releasing my first game on Kickstarter at the end of May. I have already checked production costs for my game, and for giggles I did the same for what was posted on kickstarter. The costs for what I seen are low per unit. However the problem comes in of hitting minimum production runs. Usually the lowest is 1000. One of the biggest costs is art. Thunt has that easily done since he is the artist. Second cost could be design, but basic production cost is where the initial costs can be high depending on the materials used. Figure a base cost of production and shipping of $7000-$8000 to get it to the country. Being he is in Canada I do not know their import taxes or what not. Then comes the shipping costs to get the game out to people. That can cost another $8-$12 a game. It could be Thunt would need to raise another $12,000-$14,000 to get the game to people's hands.

Best option would be to launch another Kickstarter when the game is ready to be released, and I am sure he can raise the funds needed to secure the game for players. Also I would suggest that those who would be doing a double pledge, to perhaps get some original art signed by Thunt to encourage people to pledge again. I already kissed my $252.00 goodbye.

There is one issue though, that could legally become important:

[url=http://web.archive.org/web/20140913060147/https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/336486938/goblins-alternate-realities]G:AR Kickstarter project page[/url] on The Internet Archive wrote:
Project Owners

GAR is a collaboration between the Goblins Comic created by Tarol Hunt and the design team at Evertide Games. Tarol Hunt has been writing and illustrating Goblins since 2005. Evertide Games has been designing games for the tabletop game industry since 2008.

Evertide Games did put Tarol Hunt into the description as project owners...

Any lawsuit could backfire on Thunt having to fulfil promises, although he only saw some money for commissioned art, and never for the game itself.

If there's a lawyer involved, which I now doubt, that takedown letter ought to have come from the lawyer's office (and been worded rather differently). Either the lawyer is entirely the wrong sort of lawyer with no experience in business law, or Thunt is so sure he knows how this should be handled that he is refusing to listen to the lawyer's advice. I have lots of sympathy for him, having been there myself, so this is the voice of hard experience. As an amateur you can do everything as right as you know how to do, you can think you've made the justice of your case abundantly clear... and still, representing yourself can result in a train wreck.

@Creetar: Best of luck with your own Kickstarter. I've browsed forums where earlier Evertide customers were complaining. One thing that apparently caused Evertide huge cost overruns in their previous game was warehouse space and labor to assemble the various game components ordered from different sources into shippable packages. They also apparently failed to take total weight and package size into account when calculating mailing costs to the customer, not to mention huge increases in costs for mailing to project supporters outside the continental USA. (Australia, it seems, is particularly expensive.) Please be careful to make sure you're not overlooking major items like that. Particularly for stretch goals!

Another caution with Kickstarter: Don't get too "generous" with your stretch goals, unless you already know what they are and how much it will cost to make/include/ship.

I see so many Kickstarter projects, and often have to wonder how they can afford to add so much 'stretch goal' stuff to everyone that has *already pledged* a certain amount for something. And I fear that there are surely some that would have been successful, except that they promised/added too much along the way during the Kickstarter.

Krulle wrote:Evertide Games did put Tarol Hunt into the description as project owners...

Any lawsuit could backfire on Thunt having to fulfil promises, although he only saw some money for commissioned art, and never for the game itself.

Actually that might be what makes it work. If Kickstarter acknowledges he is a project owner but refuses to release any info to him, they are in essence withholding his property from him. Its hard to say. He definitely needs to get a lawyer involved.

@Thunt_Goblins wrote:Holy crap, you guys. G:AR might actually be ready for going beta on Tabletop Simulator, soon! #GARBacker

@Regilix wrote:@Thunt_Goblins Please thunt, let me have it on tabletop simulator.

@Thunt_Goblins wrote:@Regillix NEVAR! Wait... I mean the other thing. OF COURSE! It'll be out there for everyone for free some day soon. :)

@Thunt_Goblins wrote:For the newcomers who want the backstory of "the kickstarter thing". Kindly linked to by this very nice ferret.

@Cruddley wrote:@GigaWalrus @kickstarter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47AfvPWK5ac You could ask him for a more comprehensive version. @Thunt_Goblins

Oooh, Kickstarter is doing "helpful" now.

They might still need some practice...

So you don't have anything more specific in mind? It would probably be more helpful if you knew the exact changes you want them to make. Anyway, from what I've seen of the G:AR problem, the issue isn't their policy. In fact, one of the updates on the main page says so specifically:

So they have the backer list. Meaning that its impossible because it goes against their policy. Well like I said, I read that policy. It says

We do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary to comply with the law or law enforcement, to prevent fraud or abuse, or to protect KickstarterÔÇÖs legal rights.

to prevent fraud and abuse So Kickstarter seems to have the list and the privacy policy seems to clearly state that they are able to make exceptions in cases exactly like this. Im not sure what my next move is, but Ill let you know when I figure it out.

I suggest all of us who care, to create support tickets or email Kickstarter with the below text, or something similar.

Could you help me with the details?
- At what exact date was the G:AR project launched?
- How much time approximately did it pass since the project funded an the last update/email to backers from the creator?

------ My support ticket to Kickstarter https://www.kickstarter.com/contact ------

I am a avid user and backer of Kickstarter projects, but I am very displeased with Kickstarter's actions in this one case.

A summary of the context:
- Tarol Hunt and Richard James from Evertide Games made a kickstarter (date?), but only Richard James handled the Kickstarter account.
- Richard James ran with the around 180'000 dollars raised.
- The Kickstarter project page had a link to Evertide Games page where merchandize could be pre-ordered.

A list of Kickstarter actions I disapprove:
- Kickstarter refused to put the kickstarter project page down, after ??? months of no communication from the part of the creator, and people were still being fooled into pre-ordering stuff through that link.
- Kickstarter refused to send an email to all backers with a message from Tarol with the gist of "We've been ripped off, but I'll do everything I can to make it up to you. I'm making a new game myself, and I need to know all your emails to be able to send it to you"
- After Tarol took legal counsel and sent a "intellectual property dispute" ticket, KickStarter took the page down but also sent an email to all backers saying "The project page is down, but don't worry, you'll get all your goodies in good time, everything is OK, just contact the creator. Here is the real-world address of the intellectual property disputee (Tarol Hunt)"

and the worse?
- Kickstarter policy states "We do reserve the right to disclose personal information when we believe that doing so is reasonably necessary to comply with the law or law enforcement, to prevent fraud or abuse, or to protect KickstarterÔÇÖs legal rights." , so you are free to divulge the backer's emails to Tarol if you felt it was "to prevent fraud or abuse". You just didn't because seemingly you don't want to.

So, I've been doing negative publicity and suggesting creators to start using other crowdfunding platforms, and I'll continue to do so until this situation is adequately resolved.

Here is a suggestion of what Kickstarter could do to resolve this adequatly: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1slstfk

I think this falls under the remit of "helping" when we've been asked not to help. Not a single person besides Thunt has all the details of the current situation with KS, and going off half-cocked with 'negative publicity campaigns' and angry emails on his behalf like this could have more negative consequences than positive ones, which I keep saying.

Have you at least cleared your text's contents with Thunt himself to make sure the facts you do have are a) true, b) complete, c) fully relevant and d) not going to inflame the situation further by being brought up and/or thrown in people's faces at a potentially inopportune moment? If not, please do.

(Also, if the end result is that you/other people send this to KS, post it online in an official capacity, or encourage other people to send it - there are a couple of typos and grammatical bits which you will want to have ironed out before a 'final version' goes anywhere. Proofreading is my job, so I am trained to nitpick about that kind of thing; no offense intended. I will help you with that if you wish, although not without the above-mentioned approval from Thunt.)

Also, we have a thread over in Discussion dedicated to the G:AR, Kickstarter, Evertide etc. situation, and this might be better placed (and more-viewed!) over there, if you wanted to pop over and see what you think. If you decide you want to include this in that thread for greater visibility, say so and I'll do some magical moderator merging for you.

Chiming in to agree with nikohl. Please do not do anything to "help" in any way without getting Thunt's permission and direct input. It's fine to express your unhappiness with your own involvement with the Kickstarter project (i.e., you have been told that you can expect the product from Evertide, when both you and they know for a fact that there will be no product). But if you want to discuss Thunt's own situation, you really need to get him involved. Please contact him before you proceed.

I know your heart is in the right place, but the law doesn't much care about that, unfortunately.

I'd like to add something.
THunt is his own person. Aside from the good intentions, he is not someone whom we should babysit. We don't fight his battles, he does it for himself, as an adult and as a human being. We should let him do his thing. The man might succeed and he might fail, and it is his own thing. I think that we, if we were to actively intervene, we'd not only do more harm than good, we'd also be damaging his own chances to solve his problems on his own. We might show sympathy, we might be supportive, but the man is a damn adult and should be able to solve it for himself and should only receive our help when he actively asks for it. THunt is not some person that should be cuddled, pleased and pampered because shit happens, he is a professional. The whole lawsuit that might or might not happen is his thing, and his thing alone. Do NOT get involved. For THunts sake and yours.

I have merged in two topics from Community, the topics' creator (WurmD) let me know via PM that they were happy for the contents to be moved over here as they were relevant.

Guus wrote:I'd like to add something.
THunt is his own person. Aside from the good intentions, he is not someone whom we should babysit. We don't fight his battles, he does it for himself, as an adult and as a human being. We should let him do his thing. The man might succeed and he might fail, and it is his own thing. I think that we, if we were to actively intervene, we'd not only do more harm than good, we'd also be damaging his own chances to solve his problems on his own. We might show sympathy, we might be supportive, but the man is a damn adult and should be able to solve it for himself and should only receive our help when he actively asks for it. THunt is not some person that should be cuddled, pleased and pampered because shit happens, he is a professional. The whole lawsuit that might or might not happen is his thing, and his thing alone. Do NOT get involved. For THunts sake and yours.

I just would like to say that - personally, as a human being NOT as a mod - I don't perceive the premise that adult people should only get help when they ask for it and else should be left to their own devices, fighting their own battles as valid/true/the best possible option and judging from the things he has done in the past (e.g. help/ask for help for people without their knowledge, like with that person who didn't have the money to make a leisure trip, and he asked kind people on the Internet to try and raise the money for them, so in the end they COULD go, which made that person very happy), neither does THunt.

However, in this special case THunt has EXPLICITLY asked us not to "help" and/or not get involved and because of THAT we should refrain from trying to implement whatever "good" ideas we might have about this WITHOUT his PRIOR knowledge AND consent. There's nothing wrong with presenting your ideas of what could be done to him (e.g. via email), but seeing how busy he's being kept by the comic, the kickstarter issues, his own efforts to make right what Evertide messed up and possibly many others like you offering feedback, sympathy, advice or the offer to help, don't expect a reply.

I fully agree with Guus and GathersIngredients.

You of course have the right to protect your own rights and attack Kickstarter for whatever reason you think gives you a right, but you should not refer to the Thunt/Kickstarter case, as you're not party to that case.
So, if you think KS has deducted more money than agreed from your credit card, then you have a right to complain to KS.
If you feel offended that they sent you a mail saying "you can of course contact the creator via the KS-page", while you have tried yourself and know he will not reply, you can complain. But you cannot complain referring to Thunt not being able to contact Evertide, as written in Thunts blog, as you're no party to communications between Thunt and Evertide, and you have only the story of one side.

(This is no evaluation of whether I think Thunt has done the things he has written in the blog or not - I personally do believe so, but any lawyer will point out that the story has been presented to us by only one side)

Of course you are right Gathers, however, forced help should be for rare cases only, or small gestures with certain little to no negative consequence. Lawsuits are not one of these cases, except if someone happens to be a lawyer in this specialty, and then the help given should at first be nothing more than an offer.

I really hope he gets out of this unscathed, but I have my doubts. This whole scenario seems to be really close to spinning out of control. Hopefully Tarol has a proper strategy with this one, or let it rest if need be.

Isn't Evertide Games the main one at fault, if anyone? That's what I got out of the situation.

American Dork wrote:Isn't Evertide Games the main one at fault, if anyone? That's what I got out of the situation.

Given what we know, that's absolutely the case.