Buffy & Angel

[Glemp]

Right now I have exams coming up and coursework to hand in . Buffy's taking a back seat. Although, I must say that that was incredibly stupid of Spike - if one has a ring of invincibility, one does not immediately point out their new weak point to their mortal enemy. Good grief, he could have at least put a glove over it to make it harder to take off.

[Liesmith]

You need to get your priorities straight: just march right up to your professor and tell them that you've had enough of their sass and you'll be focusing on Joss Whedon shows from now on. Make sure to bring a microphone with you, so you can drop it at this point.

I think if Spike had shown up wearing a glove on one hand, and suddenly walking in sunlight, Buffy would've just assumed the glove was magic and chopped off that entire hand. If he had worn a glove on each hand, she would've probably torn his arms off. I guess what I'm saying is that Buffy is a problem-solver with lateral thinking skills.

[RocketScientist]

Out. For. A. Walk. ... Bitch.

Oh, Spike. You are funny, but make questionable choices.

[Glemp]

Watching season five now. Spike...what the hell happened to you? What the fucking hell did Joss do to you? For god's sake you get beaten up every week for information, and now (literally now, I paused Netflix to write this) you were a fucking POET?! Not a warlord, not a notorious killer, not a blood knight, a poet ?


Okay. Let me take a breath. Spike...we're through, and fuck Joss too. My last respect for you as a character has just been consumed by a deep, dark hole of contempt and pity. You aren't badass - that was bad enough, but worse, Joss went back in time and pulled your trousers down too, almost as if he wanted everyone to forget this was ever the guy who crashed Parent's Night and almost killed Buffy. I'm done.

[RocketScientist]

Sorry you felt that way. I thought it was hilarious. I don't think it diminishes him at all. Angel was a drunken loser.

[Zathyr]

Well you knew pretty much from the start that he was sired by Drusilla. Is it really that much of a surprise?

[WearsHats]

Actually, if that's how you feel about Spike... this is a good time to call it quits. You wouldn't like his later character development at all.

[Glemp]

Well you knew pretty much from the start that he was sired by Drusilla. Is it really that much of a surprise?

First off, how does being sired by Drusilla change anything? And second, no I didn't - if you recall, in his introduction Spike claimed that Angel sired him and "was my Yoda".

I should clarify, I'm not going to stop watching Buffy and to its credit the episode did show Spike killing Slayers right afterwards. But...he always struck me, especially with his human name, as someone who was already having a lot of fun in life. So I'll keep watching, but Spike isn't Spike anymore - he's a shadow, a miserable shade of his former self.

[WearsHats]

Right. William the Bloody was a poet, and a bad one at that. Dru (always a dreamer and never quite in this world), took to him. She sired him. Then Angel took the new young vamp under his wing and taught him to be a badass. Who you are as a vamp is only somewhat based on the person you were as a human.

Personally, I liked that reveal. I think it's funny, and it gives more depth to the character. But if you don't like it, that's your call. In any case, if you're ready to write Spike off emotionally now, then do so. Your opinion of him is only likely to go downhill from here.

[Glemp]

Okay. I've actually been meaning to write this for some time -a few days after my last post, in fact- but uni got in the way. Anyway, long and short of it is that I...overreacted. I still don't like what happened to Spike's backstory, but I've separated it. There is S2-S4 Spike, and then there's S5-on Spike, and as far as I'm concerned, two different characters. I watched the finale of S5 and stopped there, since I know the show is reputed to go down after that and it was a nice endpoint. Generally I think it was okay besides the flaws a lot of reviewers have already pointed out, like the Knights of Byzantium just turning up after a too-long absence and the blood thing being confusing.Tara annoyed the crap out of me,and I know what you're gonna say, that it was intentional. I get that, but that doesn't stop her from being annoying. In any case, I'm satisfied - if I want more, maybe I'll continue but for now, I consider S5 my conclusion.

[RocketScientist]

Tara annoyed me for her first few episodes. But the more we got to know her, the more I liked her. I think she was kind of adorable.

[Liesmith]

I love the reveal of Spike's backstory:

1) When he's first introduced, Giles explains that Spike earned his nickname from torturing people with railroad spikes.

2) When we actually see Spike's flashback, his most vocal critic says he'd rather be tortured by railroad spikes than listen to any more of that poetry.

I love that. It's like a five-season-long brick joke.

[Glemp]

I love the reveal of Spike's backstory:

1) When he's first introduced, Giles explains that Spike earned his nickname from torturing people with railroad spikes.

2) When we actually see Spike's flashback, his most vocal critic says he'd rather be tortured by railroad spikes than listen to any more of that poetry.

I love that. It's like a five-season-long brick joke.

The problem I have with it is that in the first place, it was used to establish Spike's badassery - him secretly being a bad poet clearly wasn't planned for, and he was meant to die in the fight with Angel. Retconning it takes that badassery away from Spike and makes him a more pathetic character, when said badassness was what rightfully made him popular in the first place.

[WearsHats]

I'm actually a fan of that reveal, too. Although I'd never noticed the railroad spike thing.

But if you'd rather the reverse, Glemp, check out Darla in Angel. (Somewhere out there, there's a library full of fanfics explaining her behavior in the Buffy pilot episode...)

[Liesmith]

I just disagree that him being a bad poet as a human diminishes his badassery in any way. That's like saying that the Hulk's badassery is diminished by the reveal that he used to be a scrawny scientist. As soon as Spike had the chance, he started torturing and murdering people, which was above and beyond for most vampires, as they typically stick to just murder.

I also really like his character development at the end of Buffy and Angel. I won't spoil anything, even if you've completely given up on the show, but I love that it throws a wrench into some plot elements which had been taken for granted since day 1.

[RocketScientist]

Spike (William) was a better person than Angel (Liam) was. That comes through in their vampire versions. Vampire Spike is still a better person than Angelus. I don't think the retcon is that big of a deal. If you watch early episodes, other than maybe that first one where they introduced him, he wants to be all badass and do the badass things Angelus would do, but his heart just isn't in it. If nothing else, he gets bored and loses interest. Angelus was always in it for the long term goals.

[Glemp]

I also really like his character development at the end of Buffy and Angel. I won't spoil anything, even if you've completely given up on the show, but I love that it throws a wrench into some plot elements which had been taken for granted since day 1.

I should clarify here, I didn't stop watching because of the aforementioned Spike stuff, though I admit it did contribute. I just got off the train at the closest stop because hey, I'd gorged enough on Buffyness (bear in mind that this was at the end of a long binge), so I didn't want to get hooked on another long arc. Maybe later I'll pick it up again, but right now I'm slowly working though BSG S1.

[WearsHats]

BSG was awesome because of the cast. They took terrible writing and they sold it with enough urgency and heart to make it work. But do not fall into the trap of believing that the writers had any idea what they were doing, no matter how often they tell you there is a plan.

[Glemp]

BSG was awesome because of the cast. They took terrible writing and they sold it with enough urgency and heart to make it work. But do not fall into the trap of believing that the writers had any idea what they were doing, no matter how often they tell you there is a plan.

Just to clarify, are you talking about the remake? I am, and it's got good writing so far (though admittedly I'm pretty early in the run). Unfortunately, prolonged TV Tropes exposure already spoiled the Big Twist of the show .

[WearsHats]

Yes, I'm talking about the remake. The writing started off strong, but as it continued, it started to rack up plot holes. Which the tension and urgency of the first season helped to gloss over. But as the show continued, it really lost focus and direction.

It's something Thunt has talked about a few times on the livestream. Not BSG specifically. Usually he references Lost. You have to know what's going on from the start or the whole thing falls apart, especially when you build around mysteries.

The Cylons had a plan. It suceeded in the pilot episode. The rest? No plan. Even when it seemed, time and again, like the only possible reason they hadn't wiped out the fleet was that they had a larger purpose for it. They spent half the show building up the mystery of the "Final Five," but it's clear the writers had no idea who or what they were until the last minute. (I'm pretty sure there was an interview where they flat out admitted that, but it's been a few years.)

There was a Robot Chicken bit where the writers encountered the head writer of BSG (I'm blanking on his name) and asked how he does it. He shows them. He has pictures of the cast up on the wall. He thows a dart. Whomever it hits is a Cylon. I can almost believe it.

I spent far too much time and emotion trying to figure out what was going on. Worked with friends on a message board to come up with a whole theory on how the known Cylon models correlated with the 12 Olympians (the primary Greek gods) and what that might mean. But... Nope. They were just writing by the seat of their pants the whole time.

Oh well. Cast was awesome. Really great characterization. Some very cool politics. And a view into the harsh realities that most sci-fi ignores. And I love how they kept the technology "realistic" and relatable. Oh, and they actually got the physics of maneuvering a fighter in space right. No one does that. Inertia, maneuvering thrusters, thrust equalling acceleration rather than speed... Beautiful. So much right with that show. But the plot makes no sense.

[RocketScientist]

When I tried to get into BSG they were in the middle of some huge, boring election arc. Just... nope.

Don't get me started on Lost. I retroactively dislike it immensely. Big fat waste of my time. Other than Jack finding out the Sox won the Series.

[Liesmith]

I loved the early seasons of BSG and Lost (I won't spoil either here), but I just wish they'd both stuck with their "baseline" premises:

> A bunch of plane crash survivors stuck on an island, with flashbacks to their lives to flesh out their backstory and show why they were on the flight to begin with.

> A ragtag fleet of civilian ships trying to escape from an artificial menace hell-bent on their extinction, with only a single military ship to provide any protection.

BSG, in particular annoyed me with any supernatural, or pseudo-supernatural element. They could've turned it into the best science fiction show in decades if they stuck with actual science.

[Glemp]

BSG, in particular annoyed me with any supernatural, or pseudo-supernatural element. They could've turned it into the best science fiction show in decades if they stuck with actual science.

Oh my yes. What I love is that BSG is a response to Trek - it has religion, flawed characters, and it's grounded in hard science which is something I always appreciate. Call me a nerd, but I like SF works that actually use the Science part, instead of doing a search-replace phaser for revolver (something Trek always had a problem with). But, yes, some cracks are creeping in that Buffy wouldn't have allowed to, like Baltar's Cylon detector suddenly working now despite it being something his subconscious- oh, that too. I can see that BSG is going for the "greater power guiding" thing, with prophecies and wild guesses coming true. Honestly, I think I like it because it makes for a deeper world and makes Baltar a more interesting character, but I can see how it could become overused in later seasons if mishandled.

Speaking of which, there was another show on Netflix I watched after Buffy, one I forgot about. It's an anime called Knights of Sidonia, and has a similar premise to BSG - there are barely any YT clips, but here's an action scene (though there are character-focused episodes too). If you can get past the bland-looking faces, it's a good watch.

Well, I watched FMA Brotherhood too but I hardly think that needs advertising from me; but for the record, this is my favourite scene ever.

[WearsHats]

RS, if that bothered you about the remake, don't watch the original series.

[RocketScientist]

it has religion [...] and it's grounded in hard science

Mutually exclusive. Also, personal opinion:

Definitely going to pass on the original series. No wonder I never watched it as a kid.