Looking for vigilant fans

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Krulle
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Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Krulle » Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:14 pm

tobs on badwebcomicswikiforum wrote:Also this incident has given me an idea. Lets see if we can cause Thunt to have a complete nervous breakdown by bombarding him with a relentless wave of polite and well-meaning constructive criticism. Should be fun to watch
["incident" refers to yesterdays in-forum and twitter clash between BlueAmaranth and Thunt]
It's not the only post gleeing how they've been able to trigger Thunt (one more example)...

Those who can should try to help keeping a lookout for attacks like this.
Maybe it is a good thing Thunt went "off" for a bit.

constructive criticism is one thing, but doing them to actively trigger s.th?
And having scrolled a bit through their thread, I get the impression BlueAmaranth knew the trigger, [edit]see below[/edit] and did nothing to prevent anything in that direction. In my opinion repeatedly trying to make the same point on twitter and in-forum, instead of keeping it in one place only, even after it is obvious a trigger has been touched, not stopping is part of the problem (although the forum with its possibility to make longer posts is definitely a better place to explain than twitter with its character limitations). To her honour, she did stop posting the moment she was pointed out that this is a PTSD trigger for Thunt (until Thunt said he'll be "off"), so my impression from BWWforum is my impression and may be wrong.
She's also waiting for an apology by Thunt, [edit]I am at wrong here[/edit] while she confronted him with s.th. which was just a drawing, which out of context means nothing to those seeing it.

Edit: I forgot to add that BlueAmaranth also expressed on BWW-forum regret at having triggered something which made Thunt react this way.
Edit: also added a separating line to differ two topics which I initially, when writing this post, did not intend to get mixed up.
Last edited by Krulle on Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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RocketScientist
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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:11 am

That's really shitty. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that is a shining example of a terrible human being. Not going to click that link, though. I have zero interest in giving them any web traffic.

All I can say is that purposely triggering behavior will NOT be tolerated here, civil or not. And if there is a concerted Twitter attack on Thunt, he can block and report them.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by SuperVaderMan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:43 am

Krulle wrote:constructive criticism is one thing, but doing them to actively trigger s.th?
You've misinterpreted the posts over there. There was no concerted attack on Thunt as a person. BA confronted Thunt with her polite, well-thought-out criticism all out of her own accord.

That Tobs guy is making a mean-spirited joke. The rest are just really unsympathetic to Thunt's situation. They're not conducting attacks on him.

You're giving people the wrong impression and you should stop.
Krulle wrote:so my impression from BWWforum is my impression and may be wrong.
This is more accurate.
Krulle wrote:She's also waiting for an apology by Thunt, while she confronted him with s.th. which was just a drawing, which out of context means nothing to those seeing it.
She's not waiting for an apology from Thunt, and I'm not sure where you got that impression. In actuality she realizes that, while apologies are appreciated, Thunt's apologies don't really mean anything unless there's actual intent to learn from the experience and try harder to avoid posting offensive things in the future.


While I won't defend some of the overzealous mean-spiritedness of some of the posters over there, I'm not OK with people over here misinterpreting them and twisting what they say, intentionally or no, to mean anything that it isn't.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:14 am

RocketScientist wrote:That's really shitty. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that is a shining example of a terrible human being. Not going to click that link, though. I have zero interest in giving them any web traffic.

All I can say is that purposely triggering behavior will NOT be tolerated here, civil or not. And if there is a concerted Twitter attack on Thunt, he can block and report them.
I am pretty certain she did not mean to trigger Thunt in anyway, she had a valid concern/criticism about how Kin (of all people) was depicted. Even if it was out of the mind of Minmax, I feel it could/would have been more respectful to Kin.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by nikohl » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:22 am

SuperVaderMan wrote: While I won't defend some of the overzealous mean-spiritedness of some of the posters over there, I'm not OK with people over here misinterpreting them and twisting what they say, intentionally or no, to mean anything that it isn't.
And yet they do the same thing to us pretty much any time we post something they can twist. They're now wilfully misinterpreting RS' post above ("doing that makes you a terrible person") to mean "don't criticise ever", when it's patently obvious that's not what she meant.

Tobs' "mean-spirited joke" could have easily become a thing that actually got done, just like "hey let's post that minmax boobs riff to see who we can upset" (actually nobody, because it was awesome) or "let's go troll the fan forums" (a few months ago), and so on. I assume that's what Krulle was asking people to keep an eye out for. That's not twisting anything into anything else. I can't speak to much of the rest of the stuff in his post or yours, because I haven't read the BWW thread in detail, but I also don't think Krulle assumed that BA was some kind of "first wave" of critiques, he was still talking about Tobs' post at that time, so referencing BA's discussion with Thunt after Krulle's quote about intentional triggers is a little twisty in and of itself.

Edit: Okay, read a little closer (at work on lunchbreak, sorry) and maybe Krulle does think that, in which case my last sentence above is irrelevant but also I disagree with Krulle on that, BA's discussion with Thunt came long before Tobs' "joke" and she had every right to continue it to its conclusion the way she did, in my opinion. She didn't do anything that I'd class as purposefully needle-y or trollish or anything like that, and its not very fair to say she did. I thought she handled the whole thing very well.
Arch Lich Burns wrote: I am pretty certain she did not mean to trigger Thunt in anyway, she had a valid concern/criticism about how Kin (of all people) was depicted. Even if it was out of the mind of Minmax, I feel it could/would have been more respectful to Kin.
I agree that the Kin picture out of context was weird, and I agree with most of what BA said and how she said it, and I disagree with how Thunt handled it. But RS still wasn't talking about BA when she mentioned purposeful triggering. She was talking about a post made on BWW (apparently a joke :shrug:) suggesting they all come over and dish out wave after wave of constructive feedback with the express purpose of triggering another breakdown from Thunt, which is a dick move no matter which way you paint it and whether you believe in someone's PTSD or not. Constructive criticism is totally welcome, doing anything just to mess with someone's head and hurt them makes you a douche.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by SuperVaderMan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:52 am

nikohl wrote:Tobs' "mean-spirited joke" could have easily become a thing that actually got done
I doubt it. Most of the people over there are actually a lot more reasonable than you give them credit for, just like how a lot of people over here are a lot more reasonable than some people over there would give you credit for.
nikohl wrote:just like "hey let's post that minmax boobs riff to see who we can upset" (actually nobody, because it was awesome)
Also not true. Actually the general sentiment was to show it to Thunt to get a laugh out of him and help ease the tensions going on during BA's critique.
nikohl wrote:or "let's go troll the fan forums" (a few months ago), and so on.
This was actually the effort of maybe 2 or 3 individuals over there to actually establish some communication between the two forums. Most of them didn't care to try and just watched things devolve.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:59 am

nikohl wrote: just like "hey let's post that minmax boobs riff to see who we can upset" (actually nobody, because it was awesome
Whoa, wait, did y'all think we were trying to upset people with that? I was one of the people who agreed it should be crossposted and it was because I thought it was awesome and that people would enjoy it. I didn't get the impression that anyone was trying to be meanspirited with that. I'm sorry that it came across that way.

In any case, thank you for your kind words about my conduct. I was a bit upset when I saw the top post and how it characterized me like I'd been purposely hurtful, so it makes me feel a lot better to know that you don't see it that way.
SuperVaderMan wrote:
She's not waiting for an apology from Thunt, and I'm not sure where you got that impression.
Thank you also for your kind words and for clearing up that the BWW isn't doing anything like planning an attack. As far as this part, I believe he's referring to a post where I said something along the lines of "maybe Thunt lashed out at me because he's in physical pain, he might apologize when he's feeling better but I won't hold my breath." So it could be technically said that I'm "waiting for an apology" but it's a misleading way to put it.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Guus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:19 am

I think that if someone wants to be mean about something, the proper response is not getting too upset. As long as the attacks aren't personal, it's pretty much ok in my book. If they become too personal: there are rules for that.

Thing is I quite often agree with their points, although they are often too harsh in my opinion. I'm not going to state with which I do and don't though, those points don't belong in this thread I think. What I don't get is that they still care. I mean, THunt is the man he is, it's not going to change. Every point they bring up has been dealt with in the review. What's the use? Why is there so much frustration there that doesn't allow them to just shrug, conclude that they have said what there's to say, and don't bother anymore?

As to be on topic specifically: most BWW-ers on this forum have been reasonably civil. I don't think an "us vs them" digital militia is a good idea.
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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by nikohl » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:03 am

Guus wrote: What I don't get is that they still care. I mean, THunt is the man he is, it's not going to change. Every point they bring up has been dealt with in the review. What's the use? Why is there so much frustration there that doesn't allow them to just shrug, conclude that they have said what there's to say, and don't bother anymore?
Oh man, do NOT go over there and say that. It didn't go down well last time I suggested it was a shame they cared so much that it made 'em angry. They got super angry. I mean, I was my usual charming self (;)) so I take none of the blame. None, I tell you!

And BA: if the doodle was brought over here in good spirits, then I'm very glad. I guess I just assumed it would have been done with a mean intent, and I apologise for that. I really do think it's awesome.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:25 am

Well, I can't speak for anybody else, but I can try to explain why I continue to care. One reason is that I am really interested in the craft of storytelling, in any medium. There's few things I love more than dissecting a work of fiction and talking with people about what worked, what didn't work, what X line or Y shot got across to the audience, how Some Character's backstory reframes their actions in Whatever Scene... Sometimes people say I shouldn't be focusing on the negatives, but that kind of thing is genuinely fun for me. Then I find this community that, on a consistent basis, is looking at new material, picking it apart, and discussing precisely what fell short and why and how it could have been done differently. And a lot of them have great insights, and it's a comic I'd been a fan of for years, so I'm familiar enough with it to contribute to the conversation. That kind of thing is super relevant to my interests! So I stick around.

The other reason is that Thunt's approach to feminism hits a few of my personal pet peeves, which I'm not going to get into here because I don't think it's the place for it and I don't want to start another argument. Suffice to say, maybe it's pointless to care about that when it won't change anything, but early on in yesterday's debacle when we were both calm, I was legit hoping that I could get him to see my side if I explained myself well enough. I don't really think so anymore, and I won't try again, but it'll still be nice in the future to be able to talk about those things with people who agree.

Everyone else probably has their own reasons. I think as long as all the really harsh stuff stays over there on that thread and not in here, and as long as everyone's having fun in their own respective ways, it's all good.
Last edited by BlueAmaranth on Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:32 am

I think they dislike it for how Thunt acts. Which....is no longer surprising. I am curious as to what actually 'triggers' him. If it is critisim for his work then I have no idea how anybody could help uim with that, for critique comes with the job. I just....don't know anymore :shrug:

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Morgaln » Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:58 am

Guus wrote:What I don't get is that they still care. I mean, THunt is the man he is, it's not going to change. Every point they bring up has been dealt with in the review. What's the use? Why is there so much frustration there that doesn't allow them to just shrug, conclude that they have said what there's to say, and don't bother anymore?
I cannot speak for any of the others, but as one of the BWW regulars, I've asked myself this question repeatedly (not to mention that my wife also asked me that question). Usually I just turn away from a webcomic that I grow disenchanted with and something is different with Goblins that I can't just do that. For me at least, I think it's a combination of several reasons. Note that this will be a very honest answer and therefore might offend people in some parts.

First of all, the basic premise of the comic still appeals to me; 20 years ago, long before Goblins existed, I already DM'd an AD&D campaign that revolved around a village of orcs and their struggle to be accepted as an equal among the "good" races of humans, dwarfs and elves. Therefore I thought (and still think) that this comic had huge potential, and while I think that the potential has been horribly squandered, deep down I still hope to see what I was looking for when I first came across Goblins.

Another reason, and one that's certainly not flattering to me is that there is anger and jealousy that Hunt is as successful as he is with a comic that has turned as subpar and inconsistent as it has recently.

The third reason has a lot to do with Hunt himself and his behavior. I liked the man at first; but the more I saw of his blog posts the less I could stand his attitude. He's completely unable to handle criticism; he doesn't self-reflect. All those public fights he gets into are about the same issues every time because he refuses to look at what caused those issues in the first place. He posts pretty much everything he thinks in public but when someone calls him on a controversial post, he just wants them to "go away" because he's not willing to face the repercussions of his actions. But the worst thing is that there are those people who will take his side in these issues no matter what; who will protect him and coddle him and tell everyone how the mean people on the internet are causing him mental health issues (whether those are real or not isn't relevant here). I seriously feel the need of a counterpoint to that, a place that does show a different view of Hunt's behavior, and while BWW isn't always doing a good job at that because of our very harsh tone, it still provides that venue. I could go on about this for much longer, but I don't want this to turn into a full-blown rant and I'm probably already beyond tip-toeing the line.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Guus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:05 am

I appreciate both your input, but I think I've caused this thread to go rather off-topic because of it. Still, it's interesting, so thank you.

Maybe we should try to steer it back on topic? Some various viewpoints in this thread could be very interesting in an on topic setting I believe.
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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:14 am

Yeah, sure thing, I'm happy to return to the original topic. I'm not sure how to steer it back though, so I'll let someone else do it!

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by nikohl » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:30 am

The topic as posted isn't super-relevant right now though, as it's been established (with the trust of all parties, I suppose) that no "vigilance" is required. I'm only a mod, not Admin, but I'd say the current discussion isn't outside the realms of relevant to the broader topic, being BWW and GFF inter-forum chat and viewpoint comparisons right now, and there's not really a better thread for it unless we resurrect the old inter-forum discussion/constructive criticism thread. Unless someone with more authority than me overrules this, I'd say continue if you wanted to.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Guus » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:39 am

Fair enough.

I've taken the time to once again read some of the pages of the Goblins thread on BWW. I must say the "armchair psychology" that has recurred a few times is kind of unnessecary and frankly more insulting than useful, but there is one thing I full heartedly support: Hunt no longer actively plastering his life over twitter (and other online media). I think most could've been avoided if he kept his private life, you know, private. Especially after people started nitpicking every little thing he says and does. It wouldn't solve everything, but it would've made things a lot easier and less prone to drama.
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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:48 am

I just want to clarify, for the record, that I was IN NO WAY talking about BA as far as the example of a terrible person. I have zero problem with her.

OTOH, someone who would think it was funny/appropriate to make a joke about mentally triggering someone else IS a terrible person. There is no excuse for that. None. S/he was making a joke about possibly causing permanent damage to someone else's psyche. That's the psychological equivalent of making rape jokes, and it is NOT funny. It's assholish.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:52 am

RocketScientist wrote:I just want to clarify, for the record, that I was IN NO WAY talking about BA as far as the example of a terrible person. I have zero problem with her.
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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Morgaln » Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:59 am

RocketScientist wrote:I just want to clarify, for the record, that I was IN NO WAY talking about BA as far as the example of a terrible person. I have zero problem with her.

OTOH, someone who would think it was funny/appropriate to make a joke about mentally triggering someone else IS a terrible person. There is no excuse for that. None. S/he was making a joke about possibly causing permanent damage to someone else's psyche. That's the psychological equivalent of making rape jokes, and it is NOT funny. It's assholish.
This is how I read your initial comment from the start, so there never were any issues with what you said from my side.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by Krulle » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:14 pm

Okay, it was indeed nit Amaranth who proposed th crosspost first, and that ever was only cool nor did I ever think this Minmaxbreasts ever were problematic (the first reply I could find proposing posting it here, Amaranth supported this idea two posts later).

Sorry, when I first read the BWW thrad, this specific passage popped my feeling BlueAmaranth knew about Thunts issus:
BlueAmaranth on BWWforum wrote: Yeah, the whole thing kinda got out of hand. The last time I posted something on his Twitter was when he drew that "succubust" card, and that time he still didn't really get it but he at least stayed calm and we ended the conversation on civil terms. Really wasn't expecting a meltdown this time, but here we are. [emphasis added by Krulle
]
Another proof that only reading is a bad element to transport content, and it felt out of personality of how BlueAmaranth presented heself here.
A more thorough reading of the BWW thread, with taking more care to not mix up persons and who said what shows, that BA definitely did not intend to cause anything. But I misintrpreted the above quote, and honestly wish to offer my excuses to BA for this, and insinuating the message my post transported.


And I also agree Thunt should apologise for the names he called BlueAmaranth. I grossly overread this post and now owe BlueAmaranth another apology.


The main reason Istarted this thread is to call for all to keep an eye open for concerted criticism, after having seen above linked posts.
I did not intend to insinuate that BA had a part in this idea or would support it.
I should've stopped before turning the topic to BA, but it's too late now to change that.

I had a nice exchange of PMs with BA, and need to add quite some excuses towards her.
I will not repeat my discussion I had with her, also because I gave out quite some information about myself which I've promised someone to not publish myself.
Suffice to say that experiences of others have had and still have quite an impact one me, and that I cannot stand people not giving plenty of room for people who were not harmed themselves, but still got traumatised by events which happened to someone they know/someone close.

This agitates me, and I regret havin put so many topics mixed up in this thread in my agitation.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 2:45 pm

Hey man, I really appreciate the apology. I understand you were looking out for Thunt and I'm relieved to learn that you didn't mean to imply that I was being a jerk on purpose.

Though, could I request that we don't continue linking BWW posts over here? Although my intentions and opinions were the same wherever I was posting, my wording was a lot harsher when I was venting my frustrations in the BWW thread, especially in the immediate aftermath of Thunt (briefly) banning me, when I felt like he'd been trying to manipulate me. I feel I did my due diligence in being civil when I was engaging with Thunt directly (and on this forum in general, where I'm considering myself a guest), so I'm not ashamed of letting off steam on another website. I mean, I do my best to tamp down on my emotions when I'm trying to have a productive discussion but it doesn't mean I don't have them. But if Thunt came here and followed the links and read those posts, which were never intended for his eyes, I would feel bad. He was upset enough by the carefully-written diplomacy posts, and if I'd wanted him to see what I wrote in anger I would have posted it over here in the first place.

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by nikohl » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:13 pm

I think that's a pretty fair request. Everyone says things more bluntly in the privacy of their own 'home' without their diplomacy hat on. I'm not doing a mod announcement about it or anything, as it's just a user request that I as another user happen to agree with, but if people could avoid future direct links in this thread while talking about BWW posts for the above reason I think that would be appreciated all round.

I remember in the last inter-forum thread, I requested (again as a user not a mod) that people judge the visiting posters on what they said here rather than what they'd said back on BWW for the sake of friendly discourse, respecting that they'd made the effort to come over and frame their criticisms in a way that fit our forum rules and general posting culture, and taking that at face value, and I think the same sort of courtesy should be extended in this situation.

That aside: Yay for olive branches, thanks Krulle for putting your hand up and admitting you'd drawn the wrong conclusion at first and posting a clarification, and I'm glad BA has accepted the apology too. :cheer:

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Re: Looking for vigilant fans

Post by BlueAmaranth » Fri Nov 06, 2015 3:19 pm

nikohl wrote: That aside: Yay for olive branches, thanks Krulle for putting your hand up and admitting you'd drawn the wrong conclusion at first and posting a clarification
Yeah, actually I think I should have emphasized this more while I was accepting the apology. Krulle went out of his way to reconsider his initial interpretation, go back and reevaluate the thread, and come back to publicly acknowledge the initial mistake. I truly appreciate that. There's no part of that process that's easy to do.

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