Surviving Castle Heterodyne - OOC Discussion Thread

[BadgeAddict]

you actually made a good point nerre.

So, a question to you Spider. Does CP = Time it would take to do something.

meaning, to pick a lock, 45 CP = roughly 3 hours (for someone inexperienced)

Though making a pick gun ? CP = ? Time (for someone inexperienced)

The following assumes that time is in the equation, if it isn't, please ignore.
Thus, the equation Time of Task = CP - (Tool + Skill)

To use said equation:

Making a sandwich (assuming all items are available and 0 skill): Typically 5 minutes = X CP - (Knife + 0 skill)
Picking a lock (assuming no items available): Time = CP - (Tool + Skill)

[spiderwrangler]

thats the thing...if it takes 45 CP to pick a lock with a wire...how long will it take to make a pick gun = 20 CP?

But, i understand, i will continue with my wire then.

If you have the fork and spoon, lock would be 35 CP... if you use one of his allen wrenchs too, I'd knock another 5 off, so you'd be down to 30 CP, of which you're at 12 now...

[spiderwrangler]

you actually made a good point nerre.

So, a question to you Spider. Does CP = Time it would take to do something.

meaning, to pick a lock, 45 CP = roughly 3 hours (for someone inexperienced)

Though making a pick gun ? CP = ? Time (for someone inexperienced)

The following assumes that time is in the equation, if it isn't, please ignore.
Thus, the equation Time of Task = CP - (Tool + Skill)

To use said equation:

Making a sandwich (assuming all items are available and 0 skill): Typically 5 minutes = X CP - (Knife + 0 skill)
Picking a lock (assuming no items available): Time = CP - (Tool + Skill)

Yes, thanks Nerre, I haven't actually talked about time as related to tasks yet, so I probably should.

@ BAdge - Kind of? I view the turns as a measure of time, and CP as a level of effort required. So while higher CP WILL take longer to accomplish, it is not strictly a measure of time by itself. The more skilled you are in a particular task, the more CP you will be able to accomplish in a given amount of time (as reflected by increased die rolls).
If we say each turn (at least out of combat) equals say 5 minutes, and Sam had a set of good, standard lockpicks, with no skill in Locks, he'd be rolling 1d3 (as he is now), and at an average of 2 CP per turn, it may take him 13 turns to manage to pick the lock. This would be just over one hour... which without factoring in him getting lucky, sounds somewhat reasonable... I've no skill in picking locks, and I've given up long before sitting there trying for an hour..

For the same lock, with the same lockpicks, if Sam was a bit more knowledgeable about Locks, and is instead rolling 1d8, it would take him fewer turns. Here's where I started thinking that picking the lock has too high of a CP... an expert lockpicker should be able to pick the lock within 5 min easy, but based on the a CP of 25 for using standard lockpicks, he'd need to be rolling a massive amount of dice in order to succeed in the first attempt. That brings up the question (to which I don't have an answer yet) of what level someone must be in order to be an 'expert'.

My initial thought is to lower the Base CP for picking the lock, and perhaps adjust the TM (tool modifiers) for the initial set of wire picks and the ones Ursula made. I feel that while Gabe's Pick Gun and Sam's Clockwork Key, are both excellent ideas, if you were to construct them now, without greater knowledge of how the inside of a lock works, then in terms of TM, they may be less effective than standard lockpicks. Study of a lock, or having one to practice and test the device on while building it, would likely result in a more efficient tool that can be applied to other locks.

Something like....
With wire end = 10 CP (base) + 40 TM = 50 CP
With Wire Picks = 10 CP (base) + 30 TM = 40 CP
With Flatware Picks = 10 CP (base) + 20 TM = 30 CP
With Flatware Picks and Small Allen Wrench = 10 CP (base) + 15 TM = 25 CP
With Cobbled Together Pick Gun/Clockwork Key = 10 CP (base) + 5 TM = 15 CP
With Standard Lockpick Set = 10 CP (base) + 0 TM = 10 CP
With High Quality Pick Gun/Clockwork Key = 10 CP (base) - 5 TM = 5 CP

[BadgeAddict]

Here is an additional thought on top of this.

Should or is concentration a factor.

Allow to explain:

If Sam was trying to pick the lock and the group was currently being attacking by some beast, would he still be rolling 1d3 or would instead he be rolling 1d2 or 1d1. So, this could be another way to influence how long it takes someone to do something no matter how skilled you are at it. So, while it may take an expert 5CP to pick a lock, if in a "stressful" situation, or while under attack, would that double.

This brings up a further thought. Is there/can there be a skill known as "focus". which gives someone a bonus to the task at hand if there are no interruptions, no combat, etc.

edit: this actually brings into mind another point, that of active and passive skills. While lockpicking may be an active skill, Focus may be a passive skill modifier that allows a task to be performed faster.

[spiderwrangler]

I probably wouldn't alter the die being rolled, but instead add some sort of context modifier to reflect a stressful situation.

Sam attempting to pick a lock with standard lockpicks.... while being stabbed.

10 CP (base) + 0 TM + 20 Context Modifier (CM) = 30 CP .... turns out being stabbed is REALLY distracting...

Regarding a passive Focus skill... possibly, although figuring out how to gain SP in a passive skill is a bit more difficult than the more active skills.

[WearsHats]

From what I can tell, what you have makes sense.

Here's the one possible hitch: The system as it is now very gradually raises the average roll per turn, and leveling has diminishing returns.

You start with a D3. Earning your way up to a D7 would require 4 levels, which, from the looks of things, is going to take a while. At the pace we're going, probably a week, maybe more? And that's if you're just focusing on the one narrow skill, rather than building out by doing different tasks. Going from D3 to D7 raises your average roll from 2 to 4. So you've doubled your efficiency at the task. But if you keep at it and eventually go from a D23 to a D27, you'll have raised your average from 12 to 14, which is an improvement, but a much smaller one.

The question is whether that's what we (the GM in particular) want(s). Level 20 would make you expert enough that, with decent tools, you could pick the lock in a turn or two. Should it take that long? Continuing to gain levels makes less of a difference once you're reasonably expert. Is that the way it should be? It does encourage diversifying your skills (which we want to be doing anyway).

I'm not sure. And I'm not feeling very well today, so I'm not going to hurt my brain trying to think it through.

[Alaen]

What Wears said. Right now levels don't give a huge benefit. I was thinking maybe increase the level progression to increase by two per level but increase SP needed to balance it out. That way you need longer to get to a high level, but it also gives greater benefits.

[BadgeAddict]

In spoiler tags is the current leveling/crafting rules.

► Show Spoiler

Skill Leveling/Crafting

Players can attempt to accomplish a wide variety of crafting and building related tasks. In addition to any component or tool requirements, the task will be assigned a certain number of Completion Points (CP) needed to finish the task based on the complexity of the task (and at the GM's discretion). As such, the more descriptive the player is, the more engaging it will be in terms of the story, as well as making it easier to assign an appropriate number of completion points.
CP will be gained by rolling dice according to skills possessed by the player. The minimum dice roll would be 1d3 for a player attempting a task unrelated to any skill disciplines they have a level in. Many tasks may benefit from experience in multiple skill disciplines, as the dice rolled each round are additive for each level in relevant skills.
Upon completing a task, the player will gain Skill Points towards that skill discipline. After accruing a sufficient number of SP, they will level up in that skill, allowing them to make higher dice rolls on all subsequent tasks impacted by that discipline.
CP and SP levels will be determined on an ongoing basis, as I attempt to find a level of balance for the game that keeps it fun, challenging, and allows for player accomplishment.

Some tasks may generate additional SP in new skills, allowing players to 'train' in other disciplines while rolling based on a skill they have levels in. Using the Player A example above, if he had the ingredients to be able to apply his Sandwich Making skill towards constructing Icecream Sandwiches, upon completion, he may gain SP in both Sandwich Making and Desserts.

Again, CP and SP are in flux and may be adjusted as needed to balance the game...

Having re-read this, I think we may be missing a small point, thus i have another question.

I am currently attempting to pick this lock with no skill. What if i within the game, expressed my understanding about clockwork (which is essentially gears,some of which look like this)

Given this knowledge of gears, one could assume that if one were to put something that looked similar to a rack and pinion (but just the rack part) into a lock, that it would aid them in picking one...also, clockwork(gears) is essentially what goes on inside of a lock,(at least in terms of the pins moving up and down) like so. (more what im getting at here is the knowledge of gears)

The question:
That being said, when Sam attempts to work on anything, if i "claim" knowledge and explain how it is applicable, does that somehow subtract from the CP for time required.

Meaning. If i attempted something and could explain how Skill A, B, & C were applicable, instead of only rolling 1d3 i would be rolling 3d3.

This means that tasks actually aren't as complicated as we think they are. Sure, starting out things are slow, but eventually things become faster.

edit: also, this makes for interesting RPing encouragement, because it encourages you to think up ways in which to use your skills the most effectively.

[spiderwrangler]

The current thresholds for skill leveling are set at 5 SP for 1st level and 10 SP for 2nd Level, and SP rewards are equivalent to 1/10th the CP required. This was something I set up before implementing the concept of base CP for tasks that can be modified based on Tool Modifiers, so I'd still have to decide how SP is calculated in that case. My initial thought would be to continue to apply it from the base CP.

Regarding the question of applying multiple skills, yes, if you have skills levels in multiple skills, they would all apply. If you wanted to make a lockpicking device that utilizes springs and clockworks, and have levels in all 3, you'd be able to both create the device more quickly, as well as use it to pick a lock more effectively (by rolling dice for each skill). If you also have a level in Metalshaping, that would further increase the rate at which you would be able to build the device, but wouldn't help in using it to pick a lock.

What I think I'm hearing is to lower the SP levels to allow leveling more quickly, or to modify the dice used based on level?

Options:

Lower SP needed to level skills - for example, 3 SP needed to reach level 1, another 5 needed to reach level 2, another 7 needed to reach level 3, another 9 needed to reach level 4 (or 2,4,6,8,10; 4, 8, 12, 16; etc)

Instead of progressing from 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, etc, progress by adding 1d3 for each level... Unskilled = 1d3, Level 1 = 2d3, Lvl2 = 3d3, Lvl3 = 4d3, which would increase the average CP gained per roll with each level. For the lockpicking example, this would mean a one turn auto success on a 10 CP lock at level 9 lockpicking (10d3).

Thoughts?

I promise I didn't intend this lockpicking to be quite so tedious!

[BadgeAddict]

I like the second option. Also, it still gives you power because you give the CP number based on what you believe is the difficulty.

However, on the other hand. If you allow cross-over skill use, then that would eventually blow any difficulty out of the water.

If while trying to open a lock you have:
Lockpicking lvl 2 = 3d3
mechanisms lvl 2 = 3d3
gears lvl 2 = 3d3
total 9d3 = 18 avg.

So....i think the progression is good, but too fast.

what if you broke SP down into leveled tiers, in which each was more and more difficult to attain
Unskilled to level 1 = 5SP

Level
Unskilled = 1d3 (5 SP to next)
1.0 = 1d4 (10 SP to next)
1.5 = 1d5 (15 SP to next)
2.0 = 2d3 (20 SP to next)
2.5 = 2d4 (30 SP to next)
3.0 = 3d3 (45 SP to next)
3.5 = 3d4 (60 SP to next)
(could also be broken down further)

(by the way, i think this may be one of the best used OOC threads ever, I'm so proud of us..yay!)

[Alaen]

I would suggest using the fast progression and lower the SP needed for lower levels but increase the SP for the higher levels. This would make branching out easier and encourage role-playing to find ways to apply multiple skills.

[BadgeAddict]

^what i am trying to find is a balance though, not what is necessarily the easiest.

Fast progression allows the growth in power way way to fast.

In fact, I would say, if anything, leave it the same until after we open the door and then decide what is needed to change.
I mean, its like I'm playing Skyrim and attempting to pick a master lock while having 0 skill. Very difficult and time consuming. So, if we're basing everything off of this one door, i would say not to change anything..yet.

The other progression method would be similar to what i laid out above except break it into skill levels with a cap on it instead of allowing indefinite leveling (this would also encourage RPing, because once you capped something out you would most likely want to branch into new areas) (My reasoning behind this is, eventually easy gets boring.)

edit to come:

► Show Spoiler

Still thinking about this, sorry.... (also, these are all only suggestions, obviously)

What if tools increased the number of the die rolled... and skill level gave number of dies.... (or vice versa) (granted what about how good the tool is....)

So, either:

unskilled = 1d3 + Tool = 1d4
or
unskilled = 1d3 + Tool = 2d3

then

level 1 = 1d5 + tool = 1d6
or
level 1 = 1d5 + tool = 2d5

I would lean toward the second option, where tools provide a bonus die to roll. but there is also the option of making tools add to the number rolled with a base of 3. Then, based on how good the tool is would be how much of a bonus it would add. (this may sound complex)

Thus: level 1 = 1d5 + (Bad Tool (1)) = 1d6
Thus: level 1 = 1d5 + (Good Tool (2)) = 1d7
Thus: level 1 = 1d5 + (Perfect Tool(4)) = 1d9
Thus: level 1 = 1d5 + (Master Tool(8)) = 1d13

This means that someone with 0 skills would get a nice benefit from using a master tool, which allows someone to make a tool for someone else. Granted that then brings in the problem with, how good is the player with said tool.

The above is honestly just me assigning bonus numbers as if this were d&d.

But, when it comes down to it, its all situational.

[WearsHats]

Still no opinion on how to tweak the mechanics, but:

I promise I didn't intend this lockpicking to be quite so tedious!

We're playresting. Comes with the territory. We're all learning. And, as everyone has said, it's not surprising that a novice with improvised tools would have trouble. I suspect a lot of things will go slowly until we get some decent skills. Which is probably how it should be.

I wouldn't mind, though, if SP were awarded faster for the first few levels. The basics should be simple for a spark, and we're supposedly relearning things we used to know.

[BadgeAddict]

Thanks wears, that reminds me of another question I had for spider.

We were brain-wiped as you said. The question is, do we know that we were mind-wiped. Essentially, do we know that we don't know things.

I ask for the sake of Role Playing/Meta-Gaming. Thus, do we know that we used to know things...or, do we not know that we used to know things which means everything we think of is new...instead of this whole debacle of, trying to do something that we think we used to know.

[LAYF]

Hmm... the guard did say partially wiped.... (Henche why Dunn Dunn was looking for toilet paper)

[WearsHats]

The mind wipe doesn't affect other memories, so none of you are suffering from amnesia as such. You know that you've made impressive creations in the past, you just can't recall how. It's like riding a bike, except now your mind and body aren't able to recall what is needed to do it and you have to relearn how to balance and maintain momentum.

[BadgeAddict]

heh...heh...yeahhh...thats what i was looking for...silly me for overlooking that.

[spiderwrangler]

Thanks for sticking with me...

My plan for the moment would be to alter die rolls such that the minimum is raised as you level up. Not sure what exactly that will look like yet, but appreciate the feedback. SP for early levels may come down, but I think I'll be leaving it as is for now at least. Just as making everything super difficult to achieve will sap the fun, so does being able to become an expert at everything. I want the feel to be that players must make the decision to pursue new disciplines beyond those that they gain experience in as a by product of working on other projects, and want there to be benefits to being really good in one or a few skills as well as being decent in a bunch. Although I suppose a good deal of that can come from the roleplaying aspect of things as well, such as August eschewing the clank and death engine side of things and wanting to make things he can carry on his person.

[WearsHats]

My thought was to make it easier to get, say, the first 5 SP in a given field. Which is far from expert, but enough for basic competence. I don't know how that would work, though. Or if it would apply to everything or just basic/general skills. And if the latter where you'd draw the line.

Meh, it was just a thought.

[BadgeAddict]

Perhaps that is where teaching/learning can come in instead.

as for sticking with you, no worries, its fun even if it still has kinks.

[spiderwrangler]

So part of the reason I have been dissatisfied with the dice I'd been using is that the average dice roll with even dice going up each level doesn't progress evenly... for example, 1d3,1d4,1d6,1d8, 1d10, 1d12, 1d14, 1d16,1d18, 1d20, 1d22 (as I'd originally planned) would result in averages of 2,2.5,3.5,4.5,5.5, etc. but with increasing variability +-1,+-1.5,+-2.5,+-3.5,+-4.5, etc.

Unskilled = 1d3 = 2 Average +-1
Level 1 = 1d5 = 3 Average +-2
Level 2 = 1d7 = 4 Average +-3
Level 3 = 1d5 + 1d3 = 5 Average +-3
Level 4 = 2d5 = 6 Average +-4
Level 5 = 1d7 + 1d5 = 7 Average +-5
Level 6 = 2d7 = 8 Average +-6
Level 7 = 1d7 + 1d3 +1d5 = 9 Average +-6
Level 8 = 2d7 + 1d3 = 10 Average +-7
Level 9 = 2d7 + 1d5 = 11 Average +-8
Level 10 = 3d7 = 12 Average +-9

I feel that this is a reasonable change to make, it would bump the initial benefit from being Level 1 vs Unskilled (avg of 3 instead of 2.5), and by increasing number of dice rolled, will bring up the minimum at higher levels (decreasing variability).

[Nerre]

I probably wouldn't alter the die being rolled, but instead add some sort of context modifier to reflect a stressful situation.
Sam attempting to pick a lock with standard lockpicks.... while being stabbed.
10 CP (base) + 0 TM + 20 Context Modifier (CM) = 30 CP .... turns out being stabbed is REALLY distracting...
Regarding a passive Focus skill... possibly, although figuring out how to gain SP in a passive skill is a bit more difficult than the more active skills.

That makes sense. You can see what you called "context modifier" maybe more of a time dilatation effect during a battle. Cause normally turns then are much shorter than those outside a battle. Like for example 10 sec vs. 100 sec or more. So even adding a 0 behind a task would not be too unfair, cause some things just cannot be done quickly in a battle, like "Oh, my ammunition is empty, let's build some more bullets."

Context Modifier for example being attacked or under much preassure, loud noises or sickening gases still makes sense. I would only see it as something generally, working as well during a battle as well as outside.

like:
(Normal CP values and modifiers (context, tool, skill,...)) x battle modifier

[spiderwrangler]

Yeah, perhaps my stabbing example might not have been the best example, since that would be combat, which should probably be a separate case... but as another example, Ursula were trying to craft something and Bunn was doing jumping jacks right in front of her, that may make it more difficult for her to focus on the task at hand. It's easy to think up negative modifiers though, and less easy to think up ones that would improve the ability of a character to focus.

[spiderwrangler]

How about?
Lvl = SP
0= 3
1= 6
2= 10
3= 15
4= 21
5= 28
6= 36
7= 45
8= 55
9= 66
10= 78

[spiderwrangler]

Although, even with lowering SP and changing the Lvl 1 die to 1d5, no one would have hit a second level yet in their Innate Skill, or achieved a first level in a new skill. I think I will move forward on that system, tweaking both aspect slightly, and if we feel that it needs to change further in the future, we can do so. As a few of you have said, all we've managed to do is sit around and look at things and struggle to pick a lock... I plan on updating within the next 2 hours, so unless anyone objects or posts another action, I'll just assume your character is doing something useful while Sam finishes picking the lock?