Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

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Chelsa121
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Chelsa121 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:13 am

SeeAMoose wrote:
Chelsa121 wrote:. It really makes you guys look like micromanagers, and I know you're not like that.
:paranoia: That's actually something we need to work on because users will run to me claiming abuse and then I get to figure out what to do with it. I am micromanaging, partially because I still view myself at least partly as a moderator and partly because I'm trying too hard to live up to a standard of leniency and it's definitely making life harder on the other mods. The question is how to let people contact the admins with concerns without undercutting the authority of the moderators. If anyone has any ideas about this I'm all ears.
Gods, I hate to be all up in here again.

But.

1. Give your mods some basic guidelines for their behavior. Basically, the rules, how to enforce them. "If x happens, you do y. If they argue about y, you do z, if they argue again, you state the matter is not up for further debate, if that is breached, temp warning bans start to come into effect." (Pretty bloody lenient by most accounts, there are places on the internet you get banned for the first offense, no warning, etc.) Also, give a list of anything that might earn an instant ban, if there are those things. (Obvious troll is obvious.)

2. Then, trust your mods to carry these out accordingly. Or, you know, watch what they're posting and fret all you want but do not step in, instead, guide the mods, not the users if you see something that's going down. Put words in the other mods mouth's (to copy and paste as their own) if you have to until they get the hang of it. (I mean, obviously, if you're the only one around and stuff is happening, by all means deal with it, but use the same "due process" that the mods go by, and if there are any of those mods in reach to deal, nudge them in that direction first. "There is a situation unfolding in the a thread in b forum, can you go deal with that?"

3. Back your mods. Make it publicly known that you back your mods. You need an appeal process so the users don't feel abused? Fine. But set out a very clear guideline of what that is. I'd suggest something along the lines of "Do not contact the admin to intervene on your behalf except in the case of very serious abuses of mod power. Know that all admin contact will result in a week's delay before your message is read. Further, expect it to take up to a week to address your concerns. If you need help right this second, contact the global admin, knowing that their decision on all matters will be considered final."

(Half of the BS of bureaucracy is weeding out those who don't really care all that much, I swear.)

You know these mods, you guys picked them for a reason. I completely understand being worried that they won't get the nuances you do with your level of experience, but the only way to give them that experience is to take the training wheels off and let them make some mistakes and learn from them. Remember: Mods should mod the users, or at the very least, appear to. Admin should mod the mods, but appear to the users to be functionally useless. ;)
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by MonsiuerGeneral » Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:17 am

Based on lurking all I have to say is to:

remember objectivity and/or equality of treatment. That is, due to perception a simple thing can be taken many different ways. A benign comparison can be viewed as harsh or demeaning by one person, yet taken as meaningless comedy to anotherall based on personal knowledge and experience. For instance, I could post a cheeky/sarcastic reply to someone (in good taste/humor), have it taken correctly as meaningless fun by the recipient, but taken incorrectly by a mod who did not know about the reference I had made in my post and interpreted it not as sarcastic but instead as rude or insulting.

On the other hand, the roles could swap. The recipient or another forum goer could view the statement as derogatory but the mod might laugh it off claiming the post was referencing some obscure joke.

So again, I know it can probably be incredibly difficult but please try to remain calm, clear-headed and objective of the posts you moderate. That said, also be sure to take caution in posting. It's not so bad as random poster#52348, but as a mod your post will stand out. Anything and everything you say can and at some point in time will probably be put under scrutiny by someone else on the forumthen possibly use your own carefully selected words (maybe even out of context) against you.

Well, that's about all I have to say. Thanks for volunteering for what probably can at times be a pain job. Good luck, live long and prosper, geronimo, may the force be with you, stay classy.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by aloof » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:49 am

A rather recent forum lurker here, but a (very) long-time Goblins reader.

Also happens to be a rather pedantic lawyer, so will maybe give you a different insight here. All done in my lunch break so very sorry for what inevitably will be the typos and possible non sequiturs.

As admins/moderators considering putting together a new set of rules, I suspect that the key decision you will need to take is to what extent you will tolerate personal criticism that does not stray into personal insults (ad hominem). I registered to the forum simply to respond to the view put forward by Chelsa121, with which some of your seem to sympathise, and which appears to me somewhat reductive.

(a) personal criticism is not necessarily disrespectful

I will take a very simple example, used by Chelsa121, which is the suggestion that calling someone "unprofessional" is necessarily "disrespectful", and that the mods should be empowered to impose bans for this. This cannot be right.

Now with apologies for doing this, let's look at the freen english dictionary online:
  • "Unprofessional": "not conforming to the standards of a profession"; "characteristic of an amateur; inexpert"
  • "Disrespectful": "having or exhibiting a lack of respect; rude and discourteous"
Now with this in mind, imagine you were asked: "what would you consider to be a "professional" approach to providing a free service online for which you are remunerated by way of donations and/or by third parties for web site trafic". The answer might or might not include reference to regularity, committment, communications and deadlines. This is a matter of opinion, and of course this means that different opinions are equally valid depending on your point of view.

Now once you've considered what you consider to be a professional behaviour, you might very well put forward a considered and polite view that in your opinion an individual is being unprofessional. And someone else (here Chelsa121) might fundamentally disagree because they have a different view of "professionalism" in this context.

It is evident that neither view is in any way disrespectful as defined above unless it is put forward rudely or impolitely. This is very very different from, for example, calling someone an idiot, which is almost inevitably "rude and discourteous". To suggest that you should give discretion to moderators to impose bans based on their individual view of whether a politely put forward opinion which isn't evidently "rude or discourteous" should be banned is a dangerous idea. It's a very difficult line to thread, and in circumstances where most moderators are also fans of the comic it will consistently lead to accusations of bias, well-founded or not.

(b) as drawing the line on such a difficult issue is a difficult exercise, ideally you should either allow personal criticism, or forbid it

Now my understanding is that Thunt was very keen on ensuring that the forums were an open space where all opinions (insofar as not abusive) are accepted. This seems to explain the "light-touch" approach taken by moderators in recent weeks. But of course, recent events have frustrated regulars, lurkers and mods, and made it very difficult to maintain this light touch approach. Moderators have taken different approaches to this, with some being evidently more aggressive than others in seeking to "protect" Thunt than others (e.g. locking a critical thread while encouraging a supportive thread).

This leads to the question you should ask yourself;

(a) do you allow personal criticism, as long as the criticism is made politely and in a reasoned manner; or

(d) do you forbid personal criticism, either by reference to specific subjects (e.g. the OOTS forum forbits criticism or discussion of the comic schedule) or by reference to a subject matter (e.g. no criticism of Thunt).

Once you take a view, the work of the mods will be much simpler. Either you take a liberal approach, where effectively mods will allow personal opinions which they personally disagree with or find distateful, or you will take a more restrictive (but easier to administer) approach, on the view that ultimately to do so is for the greater good.

I suspect both answers will work, especially as issues only arise in times of crisis which are rather rare. But what is important is that you do make a decision. Otherwise this will lead to a lot of frustration, and inevitable accusations of mod bias.

Many apologies for such a long message which I hope was helpful to this debate.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by BadgeAddict » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:48 am

^aka = Mods need to decide on their approach and continue forward uniformly, in which no Mod takes steps that the entire mod body does not adhere to. Mods are a team and should act accordingly, without giving out favoritism or allowing leniency here but not there. Mods must skin all cats the same way.

If the Mod team does not follow its own rules and or steps outside in any way its own rules, you will never get or deserve respect from any of us.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Wolfie » Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:37 am

Chelsa121 wrote: Admin should mod the mods, but appear to the users to be functionally useless. ;)
I can see your point, but I've always been the type of person that if I see a problem, I deal with it instead of dragging someone else over to do it, even if it is their job and not mine. It save time, saves effort, and possible complaints.
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Chelsa121 » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:53 am

Wolfie wrote:
Chelsa121 wrote: Admin should mod the mods, but appear to the users to be functionally useless. ;)
I can see your point, but I've always been the type of person that if I see a problem, I deal with it instead of dragging someone else over to do it, even if it is their job and not mine. It save time, saves effort, and possible complaints.
Which is kind of why I put in that caveat that yes, you could deal with it if really necessary, (as in, there weren't others around to deal) but following the same process as a regular mod would (and I really suggest you guys nail down some form of process)... However, if there is a mod readily available to deal with it instead of you, and you step in and take over instead of directing them to the issue, it can really undermine mod authority when the users see it happening, and it also serves to take away a learning experience from that mod, and could possibly even contribute to the overall lack confidence that I seem to be seeing when they do need to deal with something when you're not available.

The crux of my point is that I know you guys have awesome intentions, as very few people do these things to deliberately undermine another person. Often, though, the worst outcome comes with the best intentions and lack of foresight. You simply think you're dealing with the issue so someone else doesn't have to to save time and such, many helpful Type A personalities can be like this (I know, I am one)... But sometimes just acting without thinking through the implications (and really, who would, it's moderating a forum, not that political, you'd think, except times like these when issues come to light) of what the action might look like to other people.

The thing is, is it less work for everyone if you do it your way? Probably, right? ...

But is it the better approach if your goal is to get people to respect the mods and listen to them without running to you guys all the time? I obviously don't think so, and I think you're probably seeing what I'm saying here too.

Does it avoid complaints? Not short term. Short term, they will probably increase, if anything, but, referring back to my points in my previous post, if you back your moderators and have a clear policy of how initial incidents will be handled by mods (and admin if there are no mods) and how complaints about mods will be handled by admin, eventually people will get used to it and realize that complaining over little things doesn't do much good.

Obviously, once people do learn that you trust your mods and side with them 99% of the time (especially with, say, a week of enforced waiting period for tempers to cool and objectivity to be restored before the matter gets looked at by admin) you probably won't get very many complaints. And if you're not siding with your mods most of the time after giving them the guidance they need to be good mods (nobody learns if you don't give them the opportunity) then it's probably time to consider appointing different ones. I mean, there's always a chance someone goes a little power mad or makes too many biased judgement calls, though I doubt it's been happening as much as people have been accusing.

I write most of these points with the understanding that comes from being an effective manager of low-paid employees, :wall: as well as the particularly odd form of politics that is belonging to a forum, as well as a working knowledge of what it takes to be a fair but firm moderator that people listen to and respect. Sometimes you just need a long-term approach. It sucks to implement when band-aid solutions are so tempting and things are going to hell and back, but I've been observing this forum and community for quite some time, (nearly five years, I think) and I've seen the cracks in it for a long time. I might've said something then, (lord knows I don't pull punches) had I thought they would turn into this crumbling mess, but I really thought that they'd work themselves out.
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Vorpaljohn » Wed Mar 26, 2014 9:40 pm

SeeAMoose wrote:Hello Fellow Goblinites, :) :) :)

P.S. If people don't participate, I might have the ability to lock the entire forum except for this thread. :halofall: Not that I'd ever consider doing anything like that :paranoia:

(cough you just considered it :) :):) )

So glad you are having this discussion. You have as the moderator team, my 100 percent support.

true story I was at a sandwich shop and the dude in front of me was having an issue with his sub. He asked for green peppers, and the sandwich expert did not put enough on so he requested more, and then he was all THATS too many green peppers(in his opinion, cause I am pretty sure there is a corporate portion that she served) the Dude was all :"THATS TOO MUCH" so she took em off one at a time stating let me know when I have what makes you happy.... ( she was not being snippy or rude)

he then said if you don't like your job you should quit, and find something you can do, but I think you are a (expletive) (expletive) and that is when I stepped in with my best George Takei impression informing him that :"You sir are a Douchebag"

See even in real life you need Moderators.

(FYI I edited this in order to add the above anecdote only after I noticed that the original poster had misspelled THREAD as thead and I figured hey I have to edit I might as well add a story Double FYI I totally like moderators that keep us civilized and remind us that we should be polite and Courteous)

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Synch » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:33 am

I think you guys all handled a stressful period very well. Don't let my further comments take away from that fact, but if criticism is helpful I do have some points to make:

* I would suggest just a bit more consistency however. Some mods seem a bit more laid back and lenient, others seem quite defensive and quick to growl, and its a bit 'good cop / bad cop'.

* I agree with the post of aloof above. Some of the criticism of Thunt that came in wasn't entirely disrespectful, but it seems like anything said against him was reprimanded. And a lot of the newcomers were just very concerned people blowing off steam, many who were angry at a lack of communication out of concern for Thunt and family rather than a missing webcomic. I don't really know how it could have been handled any better, because obviously we're all fairly protective of Thunt, but I feel like a lot of the criticism would be addressed by other forum members and a mod didn't need to jump in every time. This I think could go for a few other situations where flippant marks may be made without attempting to be directly offensive or deliberately hurtful. Eg. I wouldn't have a problem if someone said to me, "I completely disagree, you sound like a crazy person" or "keep taking your meds" or something like that, I'd brush that sort of comment off without getting above a 1 or 2 on the anger meter, or make some witty retort, but if someone said "@#$K you, you #($king %^&* " then obviously I'd want the mods to jump in.

* Also, does Discussions need another mod? Or pull one from a quieter area? Purely because it seems the trolls flock to Discussions and since the great Goblin Freeze of 2014 I'd say numbers of active forum members have jumped up considerably, including an influx of asshats and wankstains who seem to enjoy trolling the Thunt support. And it seems like Thunt isn't getting any more communicative since his tweet blog, so I'd assume we're gonna have another flare-up soon.

* Lastly, I don't know if there's a written rule or this is the current protocol, but if you're an obvious new troll with less than 3 posts and you're immediately being offensive or flaming someone, you should get a straight ban. There were a few people making their first post by immediately attacking others or having a good go at Thunt, and I would have kicked them immediately. If they're joining up specifically to be vitriolic, they're not going to contribute anything of any value to the forum at any stage imho.
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by lingrem » Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:50 am

Synch wrote:Purely because it seems the trolls flock to Discussions and since the great Goblin Freeze of 2014 I'd say numbers of active forum members have jumped up considerably, including an influx of asshats and wankstains who seem to enjoy trolling the Thunt support.
Just as a reminder, please don't insult your fellow forum users.

lol. Real reminder, but I couldn't type it without cracking up laughing.....

That's really all I'm contributing to the discussion... would rather let everyone have their say without any of my own input. Just didn't want to have any of us called out on not commenting and picking favourites.
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Glemp » Thu Mar 27, 2014 5:18 am

I'd like there to be a record of actions taken that aren't obvious to users reading threads, such as bans (and maybe warnings if you are using those now, but I can see them being kept private too), with a link to the offence that triggered them. I don't think that there are many (or any), but I think that it's important to be transparent.
Last edited by Glemp on Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:11 am

Which is what style exacly?

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Glemp » Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:41 am

Arch Lich Burns wrote:Which is what style exactly?
Oh. Um.

Th-that comment was just for comedy, you understand? Lighthearted? Having fun? Heh heh heh, I'll just take that out right now *steps back* :oops: ..

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Sleaw » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:24 am

Individual, you are charged with capital malcompliance. Anti-citizen status approved. Failure to co-operate will result in permanent off-world relocation. >:D

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:54 am

Glemp wrote:
Arch Lich Burns wrote:Which is what style exactly?
Oh. Um.

Th-that comment was just for comedy, you understand? Lighthearted? Having fun? Heh heh heh, I'll just take that out right now *steps back* :oops: ..
...I was not criticising you I was curious. I have no idea what style it is. :P

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Glemp » Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:59 am

Sleaw wrote:Individual, you are charged with capital malcompliance. Anti-citizen status approved. Failure to co-operate will result in permanent off-world relocation. >:D
No, silly. You don't have that power...that I know of. :paranoia:

"You are charged with anti-social activity level one. Moderation unit prosecution code: detect, detail, deploy."
"Community reminder: inaction is conspiracy. Report counter-behaviour to an active Moderation unit immediately."
"Attention all Goblin moderation teams, judgement waiver now in effect. Banhammer prosecution is discretionary."
"Poster notice. Failure to comply with Moderation will result in permanent forum prohibition."


EDIT: Arch, I have a...thing regarding respect for authority involving a sudden need to become incredibly polite and respectful (I still address all of my lecturers as "Doctor", despite them never requesting it and nobody else doing so), something reinforced by my oft-mentioned previous forum. Anyway, here are said Voice's lines, and here is its/her article on the wiki.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Synch » Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:20 pm

lingrem wrote:Just as a reminder, please don't insult your fellow forum users.

lol. Real reminder, but I couldn't type it without cracking up laughing......
Oops sorry :oops:

Synch wrote:And it seems like Thunt isn't getting any more communicative since his tweet blog
Aha! I may have been wrong, but I brought Thunt back to Twitter! That was all me!
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by PaintsTurtles » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:00 pm

For the most part, I don't have any issues with how the last few weeks have been handled.

One thing I think might help keep tensions lower is using the "mod alert" tag more sparingly. It comes across as harsh. I understand that the intention is likely to draw attention to a portion of the post, but the big exclamation point and "authoritative voice" people tend to use makes the post appear as if the person is talking in a clipped tone and being curt. Less is more when it comes to the exercise of power, in my opinion.

Another thing I didn't necessarily see anyone do frequently, but just as a general point to avoid, would be using the "mod tag" to criticize or try to rebuke a point. It comes across as passive-aggressive or as an attempt to silence dissenting opinions.

This is a personal opinion, but in eleven years of running a similarly-sized community, I've found that people almost always respond better to direction when they feel you've given them a chance to express their opinion, you've listened, and you understand what they are saying, even if you don't agree. If you absolutely must exercise hard power and "put your foot down", it's frequently better to do it via PM. The person doesn't have to try and respond to save face in public. If you give people an out, they'll often take it. On the other hand, if someone feels backed into a corner, it rarely ends well.

Finally, this is less "suggestion for mods" and more "suggestion for everyone", but really, truly try to understand what other people are saying. Try to put yourself in their place and think about how you would argue against your own position. Look for common ground on which you can build, or even just agree to disagree. In many arguments, there's something common that both parties can agree on, and it tends to make discussions a lot more pleasant to say "Yes, I agree with you about this, but disagree on the details in this way" rather than taking the "you are wrong" hard line stance.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by DrinksTooMuchCoffee » Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:07 pm

Maybe when a thread in general is getting rowdy a separate generic mod post along with the thread getting combed backwards for naughty posts and those posts being modded without so much detail would keep individuals from feeling like they're being selectively picked-on by the mods. In my time as an IRC Nazi^H^H^H^HChanOp for a semi-public channel I didn't have to worry about anything but the moment, and telling people to knock it off or I'd put them in the corner. With new people popping into a thread and not having read everything in it already, even older posts are part of the conversation of the moment if you don't go back and smack them down too. Eh, just some thoughts. Some fanatical Fremen enforcing compliance with bloody crysknives would be my own preference, but whatever. ;)

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Arch Lich Burns » Thu Mar 27, 2014 10:02 pm

Damnit paints, now it's very VERY tempting for me to play around with the mod voice with silly things in it. :freaky: How dare you for giving me such evil ideas. o:) :P

*Not actually mad, but sometimes my mind goes to silly places.*

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Glemp » Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:12 am

For what it's worth, I like the Mod Voice - not just to draw attention, but also to emphasise that it isn't personal and the poster is just putting their Mod Hat on. Perhaps a lesser version should be made for the Mod 'suggestions' they use before putting on the Big Stompy Voice?

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by WearsHats » Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:11 am

Generally speaking, the progression goes like this:

Unofficial warning/gentle reminder not in mod voice. This gives people the benefit of the doubt and a chance to improve going forward without being officially called out.

Mod voice. When the gentle reminder isn't enough or is overlooked, when an escalating situation involving multiple posters need to be addressed, when a statement needs to look more official, to mark when we've used mod powers (editing someone's post, splitting a thead, etc.), or when the violation is serious enough that a gentle reminder just won't do.

Official Warning. For repeat offenders, those ignoring mod voice, and very serious violations.

Temp Ban. When a user has ignored/accrued multiple warnings. (Note that Controversy is an island. Warnings and bans from there are separate from the rest of the boards.)

Permanent Ban. Continued violations after a temp ban will eventually result in being totally banned from the boards.

We also recently introduced probation, which adds posting and access restrictions without a full ban. Details of how that fits in are still being worked out.

Thing is, people here have generally been well behaved. It's very rare that we've had to even issue an official warning, let alone go further than that.

I think that model works well. It lets us keep a generally light hand and give people ample chances, but it also gives us ways to deal with situations that are out of hand or look to be on verge of becoming so.

There needs to be flexibility to deal with things on a case by case basis. The rules will never be perfect. (Neither will we, but that's why we consult with each other and have an appeals process.) We're not talking about things that are clearly defined and measurable, like the speed limit. We're talking about things like when a joke becomes unacceptable, and just how offensive it is. Everyone has personal biases about the stuff, including the people complaining about "mod bias." We do our best to be impartial, and to deal with reports and complaints as they come in.

One thing I have personally had an issue with in the past few weeks is that, while I am on the mod team, my domain is Controversy. The recent influx in Discussions required more attention. It put me in a strange in-between state. I'm not a mod in that forum, and I did pass on any official action to the forum and global mods, but I still chimed in with unofficial reminders. Which I could have done even if I wasn't a mod (several of our regular posters did the same at various points), but which carried more weight because I am on the team. It was just kind of undefined. But I'm not sure that's something that can be improved.
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by SculptsAir » Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:06 pm

WearsHats wrote:Unofficial warning/gentle reminder not in mod voice. This gives people the benefit of the doubt and a chance to improve going forward without being officially called out.
Maybe bold and change the color of the text for this kind of posts?
To make sure they get noticed and look more official.

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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by SeeAMoose » Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:20 pm

That's a good idea Sculpts, I'm working on adding some new bbcodes for gentle reminders or general information.

This one is still a work in progress, but were you thinking something like this?
This is a General Reminder
Or is this one better
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by Synch » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:28 am

I prefer the first one of those, stands out more but also easier to read.
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UStream Username: WearsHats
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Re: Forum-wide Rules and Moderation Discussion

Post by WearsHats » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:53 am

The first one is almost invisible if you're set to ProSilver, though.
Mostly offline/inactive due to chronic health issues. PM me if you really need attention.

"(Asks), why do you want to shoot all of my favorite animals out of guns?" - JibJib

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