Kore Discussion / Speculation

[YardMeat]

HereÔÇÖs what I was looking for:

Divine Spells
Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells. The divine forces of law and good power paladin spells.

So ÔÇ£divine forcesÔÇØ are clearly something distinct from deities. Clerics may choose to serve an ideal rather than a god, and since it states here that their two sources of power are deities or divine forces, impersonal divine forces must be the source of power for non-theistic Clerics. And the ÔÇ£divine forces of law and goodÔÇØ that fuel paladin spells and abilities are something comparable to the ÔÇ£divine force of natureÔÇØ that powers druid and ranger abilities. That is, something impersonal, more like (pardon the comparison) the Force than a god. Like druids and rangers, paladins can certainly have deities, but they are not the source of their power.

[kaeroku]

My theory: Kore is Forgath after the MoM, and one of the items in the Winner's Circle has enabled him to travel back before the points in the story we've already seen (assuming that both plot-lines are simultaneous.)

Also, while torturing may go against Paladin requirements, I'm not certain that he actually did. He healed Chief, but it doesn't show the torture, simply implies it. Actual actions that go against Paladin-hood may cause loss of status, but implied actions which create the desired result (Chief screaming to make the other Goblins come back) are not. It's cleverness and trickery, but not necessarily against the tenets of Paladinhood.

Also, considering Paladins fight and eradicate evil, it's possible that from a universal standpoint, all of his actions are justified. We have OUR interpretations of good and evil as individuals, but these things are not universal (multiversal?) In short: our definitions may be imperfect.

*Edit: Forgath, not Fograth. Heh.

[Orga the Strange]

My theory: Kore is Forgath after the MoM, and one of the items in the Winner's Circle has enabled him to travel back before the points in the story we've already seen (assuming that both plot-lines are simultaneous.)

Also, while torturing may go against Paladin requirements, I'm not certain that he actually did. He healed Chief, but it doesn't show the torture, simply implies it. Actual actions that go against Paladin-hood may cause loss of status, but implied actions which create the desired result (Chief screaming to make the other Goblins come back) are not. It's cleverness and trickery, but not necessarily against the tenets of Paladinhood.

Also, considering Paladins fight and eradicate evil, it's possible that from a universal standpoint, all of his actions are justified. We have OUR interpretations of good and evil as individuals, but these things are not universal (multiversal?) In short: our definitions may be imperfect.

*Edit: Forgath, not Fograth. Heh.

Chief Before torture:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/11162010-2/

Chief after torture:
http://www.goblinscomic.com/11232010-2/

Notice how you can see pieces of him have been cut off, and new wounds made? Yeah, no, rest assured Kore did in fact torture him.
As for the whole 'What is evil? What is good?' standpoint, good and evil have been clearly defined in the comics and the game which the comic is based off of. Kore's actions have placed him directly under evil, and that's just from what WE have seen. Who knows what other evil acts he's done in the comics past.

[YardMeat]

Also, while torturing may go against Paladin requirements, I'm not certain that he actually did. He healed Chief, but it doesn't show the torture, simply implies it.

Implied by his severe injuries, dismemberment, and screams? Are we supposed to assume that Chief caused all of those injuries to himself? Chief specifically says that he tried to stop screaming for as long as he could. Sorry, but there's reaching and then there's reeeeeeeaching.

Actual actions that go against Paladin-hood may cause loss of status, but implied actions which create the desired result (Chief screaming to make the other Goblins come back) are not. It's cleverness and trickery, but not necessarily against the tenets of Paladinhood.

Are you also saying that he didn't kill the dwarven child? Everyone else in the room was dead, so I don't think he was tricking anyone. What about the blind goblin? If I recall correctly, we actually see his death.

And you are making the assumption that his "desired result" to have the Goblins come back so that he can kill them is a good one. What about killing a group of non-evil beings strikes you as good?

Let's recap:

Kore came across a map to the goblin camp while killing a group of monsters and their adopted dwarven child. Besides the child himself, at least one of the monsters slaughtered there was not evil. He specifically states that he is aware that the child is not evil, but kills him because he is concerned that he may one day grow up to sympathize with evil.

Kore then goes off to the Goblin village where he goes out of his way to find out where the non-evil camp of innocent women and children are staying so that he can kill them too. We see a couple of these deaths happen there, including the death of a fleeing, blind, non-evil goblin. My memory is a little fuzzy on what happened after that. I know the GAP spotted him at least once around the time that they were picking classes, and then of course he found them at the river.

He tortured Chief (or else is a master illusionist, in which case he would not have had to keep Chief alive at all) because it would be too inconvenient to chase the GAP into a dungeon crawl.

To top all of this off, we have a fortune teller who has observed that he is cursed (though he calls it a gift).

Also, considering Paladins fight and eradicate evil, it's possible that from a universal standpoint, all of his actions are justified.

Not really. It would require even more mental gymnastics to come to that conclusion than to the conclusion that Kore did not torture Chief. If you want to come up with your own definition of good that involves engaging in torture in order to entrap and kill non-evil beings, kill children so that they do not face the potential of grow up sympathetic towards evil, kill blind and elderly non-evil creatures as they attempt to flee from you, go out of your way to kill other non-evil non-combatants, etc. then go for it. But you would be stretching the definitions of good and evil provided by the source material that we are dealing with here.

We have OUR interpretations of good and evil as individuals, but these things are not universal (multiversal?) In short: our definitions may be imperfect.

Sure, in the same way that maybe we are just brains in a jar, or maybe cyanide stopped being poisonous yesterday and just no one has had the courage to try it out yet. They are fun ideas to play with as philosophical toys, but there is no compelling reason to actually believe them.

Our definitions of good and evil are very likely imperfect, but that does not mean that all proposals are equally valid. Saying that we can't be certain, so Kore's actions may actually be good is like saying we can't be certain what Jupiter is composed of, so we have to give equal credence to the view that it is made out of mostly gas and the view that it is made out of mostly cottage cheese.

We have not been given any narrative clues that Kore is simply misunderstood. The first time anyone in the comic rose the question about how he still retains his powers, however, we also find out that he has some sort of curse/gift. Any explanation that fails to take that into account seems to be ignoring the only real clue that we've been given so far.

[SamWiser]

This may be out of line, as I really can't help at all, but have you guys looked at actual curses in the game? People seem focused on the rules of a Paladin, and how he could do this, but I haven't read anything about what curses could be placed on him. I don't really know anything about what could do that, but it would provide another place to look.

For all we know, he could be being controlled by somebody else (similar to "Dominate Person", but more powerful). From what I have read about the code, only willing actions count toward his paladin status, so if he is being controlled by somebody that could control him with magic, then it wouldn't be him doing this, it would be the person controlling him, and he could keep his status as a Paladin. Does any of that work? Or am I seriously confused about how this all works?

[YardMeat]

For all we know, he could be being controlled by somebody else (similar to "Dominate Person", but more powerful). From what I have read about the code, only willing actions count toward his paladin status, so if he is being controlled by somebody that could control him with magic, then it wouldn't be him doing this, it would be the person controlling him, and he could keep his status as a Paladin. Does any of that work? Or am I seriously confused about how this all works?

Geas/Quest has been tossed around a few times. I'm not sure about this spell specifically, but some sort of mind-controlling magic seems like the most likely explanation.

[YardMeat]

You know, I'm sure someone else has already suggested it, but maybe Kore has been experimented on by the same wizard that is responsible for Goblin Slayer and Saral Caine. We haven't seen much of his body, and a spell caster of that caliber could easily be responsible for his curse.

[LAYF]

Well curses are more of a Devine thing... not Arcane... so... I don't think so....

[YardMeat]

Maybe, then again, if it something like Geas/Quest then there are both arcane and divine versions.

[Glemp]

You know, I'm sure someone else has already suggested it, but maybe Kore has been experimented on by the same wizard that is responsible for Goblin Slayer and Saral Caine. We haven't seen much of his body, and a spell caster of that caliber could easily be responsible for his curse.

Hmm, I do think that the transformation magic thing is leading somewhere. It hasn't been explained, and I think that it'll turn up later.

[boneguard]

This may be out of line, as I really can't help at all, but have you guys looked at actual curses in the game? People seem focused on the rules of a Paladin, and how he could do this, but I haven't read anything about what curses could be placed on him. I don't really know anything about what could do that, but it would provide another place to look.

For all we know, he could be being controlled by somebody else (similar to "Dominate Person", but more powerful). From what I have read about the code, only willing actions count toward his paladin status, so if he is being controlled by somebody that could control him with magic, then it wouldn't be him doing this, it would be the person controlling him, and he could keep his status as a Paladin. Does any of that work? Or am I seriously confused about how this all works?

I can speak about 3rd edition, but in earlier edition, A paladin Cursed/Geased/Quested/Dominated into performing an Evil act -murder of non-combatant, torture and a few other thing Kore did- would be classified as a UNwilling Evil Act and he would still lose his Paladinhood, but could get an Atonement performed to regain it.

But Considering Kore is a Level 14 and still a Paladin, it would have to be put on him recently and by a powerful wizard/priest to be unbeaten by his high saving throw. Plus every time he's about to do an action against nature he would have to fail another saving throw -some Mind control spell allow such saving throw if you perform something against your will AND He would do everything to have it removed and would have never willingly accepted sucj Geas/Quest.

If it's an old lingering Quest/Geas/Curse/Domination that he did not try to remove, it would have been considered a Willing act of Evil long before level 14.

[Reads_Forums]

If Kore was the original paladin from AoP, he'd be a 1st ed paladin? We don't see him atoning after every unwilling evil he does, so that isn't an option as he'd know he was doing evil by having to atone each time, this isn't consistent unless he has an autoattone put on him as a side effect by AoP? Cursed to eternally hunt down all evil unable to lose his paladinhood or life, leading him to the conclusion his acts are good.

[BeanDip]

If you got the free Goblins Book One PDF from the free Comic Book Day Giveaway there are some notes about Kore in the Bonuses included with that PDF. I don't want to say anything specific 'cause I don't know if Thunt wants it to stay exclusive to the Book and since I got it for free (but bought Book 2 outright) I don't reckon it's my place to spill the beans.

So if you haven't gotten your free PDF yet, go get it now or if you missed the giveaway then buy the first book and support Thunt!

[Sushulana]

Kor is a God, obviously.

Maybe he's just having a bad day.
Or maybe, he's the sick bastard who came up with the Maze of Many....

[YardMeat]

Hm, I was really adamant on this thread that Forgath would defend the GAP against Kore, but something has me re-considering. I was re-reading and came across Forgath's comments in two comics that are kind of confusing me:

http://www.goblinscomic.com/02232010/
http://www.goblinscomic.com/05172010/

Does anyone remember what happened between these comics and "We've made a terrible mistake" that has changed Forgath's attitude?

Edit: nevermind http://www.goblinscomic.com/03112006/

[Linkcharge]

OK, here's a stray thought: Seems to me that all speculation so far has hinged on the idea that Kore is wrong in his view of evil. However, given that this is a fantasy world, can we really be sure of that? What if Kore's right?
What if evil really is contagious within this universe? What if that little dwarf kid really would have become evil in the future? What if any sympathy or leniency towards evil will inevitably result in evil completely overrunning the world and turning into pure hell? Wouldn't that mean that Kore's actions no longer count as evil?

The idea here is that it's not Kore who's evil, but everybody else who's too sloppy to realize that he's been right all along and this is the only way to ensure that evil doesn't triumph. According to Kin in the Maze of Many, evil is winning in the multiverse, perhaps because of this very thing; good people tend to give the benefit of the doubt, even when they shouldn't. As a result, evil spreads like an infection and nobody is willing to admit that the only solution is a very strict sort of quarantine, where anyone exposed is put down.

It might be hard to kill an (apparently) innocent child, but if you know for a fact, with unerring certainty, that he will become evil and he will hurt people unless you stop him now; and there's no other way to stop the contagion than killing him and every moment that he's allowed to live will only increase the risk of him spreading the contagion to someone else, is it really evil to do so?

[Krulle]

Then it would still be evil, as Kore defined evil as being "with any monster".

For Kore, any "monster" is evil, and evil is contagious like a disease.
As if the Dwarf-kid's (Targoth) kids would become Ogres or Orcs just because he got kidnapped by Hawl who otherwise treated the kid as an equal....

Kore is willingly preventing anything he defines as monster and evil to mingle with others.
The socializing alone is enough to consider you as having the seed of evil in you.
He is a racist. The way he acts makes it a conscious, willing act of evil.
But if his DM is a racist, then it all might fall within the bounds of "good". Then he's from an universe where racism is the norm and considered fully "okay".

[YardMeat]

It might be hard to kill an (apparently) innocent child, but if you know for a fact, with unerring certainty, that he will become evil and he will hurt people unless you stop him now; and there's no other way to stop the contagion than killing him and every moment that he's allowed to live will only increase the risk of him spreading the contagion to someone else, is it really evil to do so?

Except that Kore DOESN'T know any of these thing and he openly admits that. He does not kill the kid because he knows that he will end up being evil, he kills him because he MIGHT end up SYMPATHIZING with evil (http://www.goblinscomic.com/09172005/). In his own words, he does not kill the kid because of certain evil, but because of potential evil. I think we can safely assume that Hawl was not evil, so I don't buy the whole "evil seed" theory.

It really looks like Kore believes that monsters=evil. Hell, just look at the dichotomy: Forgath witnesses a monster begging for the life of his son and immediately realizes he has made a mistake and that the monster isn't evil, Kore witnesses a monster begging for the life of his adopted son and kills them both.

Let's face it, if all of the things you say about good and evil are true, then good and evil are virtually indistinguishable. I'm not even sure there is a reason to prefer one over the other if everything you say is true. A world in which evil is winning is a world full of murder, torture and misery . . . just like a world where good is winning.

[YardMeat]

Oooo, new thought. So my original idea was that Kore just has a faulty/cursed "detect evil" system. Going back and re-reading the comic,I realized that I was wrong because Kore was able to see that the dwarven kid was not evil. At the same time, however, he refers to the monsters in the hide-out as "evil creatures." We have reason to believe that Hawl was good and little reason to believe that the other monsters were evil.

Obviously, Kore believes that monsters=evil, but what if this is not just some ideological racism, what if his curse causes him to see all monsters as evil whenever he uses his detect evil ability. Again, maybe Kore's past is somehow entwined with that of the Goblins Slayer and Saral, who are perhaps the only characters in the setting that are as obsessed with tormenting all monsters as Kore is. Maybe they were part of the same adventuring group at some point. GS and Saral did not need much encouragement to go around killing every monster in sight, but Kore had to be . . . modified in other ways to set out on the same mission. Just a thought, by no means a prediction.

[brnforce]

Then it would still be evil, as Kore defined evil as being "with any monster".

For Kore, any "monster" is evil, and evil is contagious like a disease.
As if the Dwarf-kid's (Targoth) kids would become Ogres or Orcs just because he got kidnapped by Hawl who otherwise treated the kid as an equal....

Kore is willingly preventing anything he defines as monster and evil to mingle with others.
The socializing alone is enough to consider you as having the seed of evil in you.
He is a racist. The way he acts makes it a conscious, willing act of evil.
But if his DM is a racist, then it all might fall within the bounds of "good". Then he's from an universe where racism is the norm and considered fully "okay".

Or what if all of you don't realize that you have the seed in you? What if all monsters are evil? What if Kore is correct? What if his curse is that he must commit evil acts in order to stop the greater evil of the monsters. What if this painful task (paladins would loath a task like this) and his curse is to be the lone good paladin. Could Kore be the only reason why the reality of Goblins has good winning?

[BuildsLegos]

Your over-use of what-ifs are pathetic, irritating, and only work as an underhanded attempt at promoting racism. Would you really kill Big Ears, Fumbles, or Kin just because they look weird? It's such a disgustingly contradictory sentiment to what Thunt's story is all about.

[Linkcharge]

Would you really kill Big Ears, Fumbles, or Kin just because they look weird?

No, but then I wouldn't think that Kore could do what he does and remain a Paladin, either. That's the whole point of this; trying to explain something that, by all appearances, shouldn't be possible in this world.

The basic problem is this:
1) You cannot willingly commit evil acts and retain Paladin status
2) Kore has Paladin status
3) Kore willingly commits evil acts

Possible solutions are:
1) Somehow you can commit evil acts and remain a Paladin (ruled out because the story follows D&D rules on this point)
2) Kore isn't really a Paladin (ruled out because Thunt said he is)
3) Kore somehow isn't a willing participant (possession, coercion, whatever)
4) What Kore does isn't really evil (seems unlikely, but that was the angle I was trying to explore)

Let's face it, if all of the things you say about good and evil are true, then good and evil are virtually indistinguishable. I'm not even sure there is a reason to prefer one over the other if everything you say is true. A world in which evil is winning is a world full of murder, torture and misery . . . just like a world where good is winning.

Not exactly. In a world in which there's only good, there would be no murder. In a world with only evil, murder continues. The difference would lie in whether murder and carnage is inherent to the position or only comes as a result of conflict with the opposing position.
Still, I'm not too happy about my idea, really. It doesn't fit with what we've seen. The central theme of the storyline is that such simplistic rules as goblin=evil don't hold up. My point was simply to try and come at this from a new angle.

I still think the coercion idea is the most viable. Even the "faulty evil detector" idea has a problem because doing evil acts, even unintentionally, is a no-go for a Paladin. There are three points to an act: Was it evil? Was it willingly performed? Was the person aware that it was evil?
The first two point is what matters with relation to Paladin status (as I understand the rules). Point three can only mitigate a transgression, not eliminate it. It opens a door for penance and restitution, but that's it. An evil act performed without understanding is still an evil act. If you're tricked into killing an innocent, you've still killed an innocent. The only difference is that it doesn't imply anything for your permanent alignment. You can still recover your paladin powers and remain good aligned, if you do penance.

I'll shut up now

[BuildsLegos]

4) What Kore does isn't really evil (seems unlikely, but that was the angle I was trying to explore)

Still, I'm not too happy about my idea, really. It doesn't fit with what we've seen. The central theme of the storyline is that such simplistic rules as goblin=evil don't hold up. My point was simply to try and come at this from a new angle.

And while I'm hardly against open-mindedness, the sooner we're done exploring that angle, the happier I'll be.

[YardMeat]

3) Kore somehow isn't a willing participant (possession, coercion, whatever)
4) What Kore does isn't really evil (seems unlikely, but that was the angle I was trying to explore)

3, or something close to it, is the most likely solution. The very first time someone in the comic questioned how he retained his Paladin status, Kore's curse was also brought up. It is pretty clear that his curse has something to do with this whole situation.

Not exactly. In a world in which there's only good, there would be no murder.

Except, if we are going to entertain the notion that Kore's actions are good, then even potential evil deserves murder. So even a world in which actual evil had been eradicated, good people would still commit murder.

I still think the coercion idea is the most viable. Even the "faulty evil detector" idea has a problem because doing evil acts, even unintentionally, is a no-go for a Paladin.

Goblins is based on 3rd ed D&D. Evil acts only count against the Paladin if they are willful.

There are three points to an act: Was it evil? Was it willingly performed? Was the person aware that it was evil?
The first two point is what matters with relation to Paladin status (as I understand the rules). Point three can only mitigate a transgression, not eliminate it. It opens a door for penance and restitution, but that's it. An evil act performed without understanding is still an evil act. If you're tricked into killing an innocent, you've still killed an innocent. The only difference is that it doesn't imply anything for your permanent alignment. You can still recover your paladin powers and remain good aligned, if you do penance.

That would be getting into some pretty nitty gritty rules interpretations. The PHB says that a Paladin loses their powers if they "cease to be lawful good . . . willfully [commit] an evil act" or "grossly [violate] the code of conduct." The code of conduction section further specifies that "a paladin must be of a lawful good alignment and loses all if she ever willingly commits and evil act."

Under your interpretation, intentionality doesn't matter, only the consequences of an action. So a Paladin that willful commits an act that they did know was evil has willfully committed an evil act. Under my interpretation, intentionality does matter. A Paladin only willfully commits an evil act if they are both in control of their own actions and aware that the act is evil.

[Krulle]

So that everyone can re-read the relevant pages without much efforts, I'll add some links:

Let's recap:

Kore came across a map to the goblin war camp while killing a group of monsters and their adopted dwarven child. Besides the child himself, at least one of the monsters slaughtered there was not evil. He specifically states that he is aware that the child is not evil, but kills him because he is concerned that he may one day grow up to sympathize with evil.

The talk with Targoth Bladebeard: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09172005/, the Dwarven kid adopted by the trader Hawl.
Hawl's map of the Goblins warcamp: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09182005/

Kore then goes off to the Goblin village where he goes out of his way to find out where the non-evil camp of innocent women and children are staying so that he can kill them too.

The talk with Young And Beautiful: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03262006/

We see a couple of these deaths happen there, including the death of a fleeing, blind, non-evil goblin.

No, this does NOT happen at the village.
Asks Nonsense and Taps are in the warcamp too: http://www.goblinscomic.com/04012006/

My memory is a little fuzzy on what happened after that. I know the GAP spotted him at least once around the time that they were picking classes, and then of course he found them at the river.

The GAP on the way to Brassmoon: http://www.goblinscomic.com/09232006/
At the river: http://www.goblinscomic.com/10192010/

He tortured Chief (or else is a master illusionist, in which case he would not have had to keep Chief alive at all) because it would be too inconvenient to chase the GAP into a dungeon crawl.

http://www.goblinscomic.com/11162010/

To top all of this off, we have a fortune teller who has observed that he is cursed (though he calls it a gift).

Again the conversation with Young And Beautiful: http://www.goblinscomic.com/03272006/
As a bonus:
This is the vision she hints at: http://www.goblinscomic.com/12132005/

A service provided to you by the transcription team. You're welcome.
Now everyone has the links to the original pages.