Unofficial Timeline Discussion

[SGTdude]

[NOTE: the material in this thread should be considered to be INACCURATE. This thread currently serves as source material for the reconstructed timeline, and for discussion of timeline issues.]

Day 1
- the comic starts/goblins are introduced
- Forgath and Minmax are in caves with the other PC's
- The comic begins to be presented in color and Hawl shows up at the Cryptic Falls war camp
- Forgath mocks Herbert and gets his party sent on a noob quest
- Hawl returns "home"
- Kore "purifies" said home
- Goblin Adventuring Party (GAP) continues planning the defense of their camp as it turns to night

Day 2
- Forgath, Minmax, and the drow PC's plan their attack of the Cryptic Falls war camp
- Cryptic Falls war camp battle begins
- Dies Horribly has his arm cut off and leaves the camp
- Dies Horribly passes out beside the lake and Klik begins making his new arm
- War camp battle ends with GAP running away
- Dies Horribly wakes up with a new arm
- GAP discusses what happened in the field, deciding to take levels and head towards the Swamp of Silence
- Forgath and Minmax loot the war camp
- Dies walks in the woods with Klik and meets the PC's again
- Forgath and Minmax discuss the Anymug
- Dies flees the PC's only to be rescued by Viper Clan
- GAP sees the caravan and Fumbles attacks
- GAP runs away
- Dies wakes up in Viper Clan's camp and meets his fellow adventurers
- Grem and Duv discuss sending Dies Adventuring Party (DAP) into the Well of Darkness
- Hobgoblins approach the Viper war camp
- GAP camps for the night and rejects Fumble's plan to go to Brassmoon City
- Fumbles sets out on his own for Brassmoon City
- Hobgoblins confront the Viper clan

Day 3
- The hobgoblins launch a huge attack on the Viper war camp
- The fight continues through the wee hours of the morning
- Hobgoblins begin to chop down DAP's tent
- DAP dangles dangerously while distractors drop dead
- Kore arrives at the Cryptic Falls war camp, interview YAB, kills some goblins, and leaves
- GAP wakes up and realizes Fumbles is missing
- Viper kills off the Hobgoblins
- GAP enters the Swamp of Silence
- Fumbles approaches Brassmoon
- GAP enters the mountain of plant-zombies formerly known as Thornback
- Fumbles is captured
- GAP gains a level and gets loot
- Fumbles is taken to the dungeon of Brassmoon
- GAP leaves the mountain through another tunnel that somehow also elevates them
- Kore is observed about 1 day's travel away and not heading toward Brassmoon
- Fumbles is tortured
- DAP enters the Well of darkness
- GAP arrives at Brassmoon and enters through the sewers
- DAP progresses deeper into the well of darkness
- GAP finds Fumbles, only to abandon him

Day 4
- GAP steals food
- Big Ears detects evil on the Axe of Prissan
- GAP enters GS' lair
- Thaco decides to trash said lair
- GAP enters the Elite's hall and wrecks the place
- Big Ears fights Saral Caine
- Big Ears becomes the possessor of the Axe of Prissan
- Big Ears Kills Saral Caine
- An execution is planned for the next day
- The owlbear kills its keeper
- Fumbles is not found in the torture chamber
- The owlbear is put out of its misery

Day 5
- Fumbles execution ceremony begins
- Complains leaps into action
- Big Ears persuades Thaco to join the fight
- Big Ears scares the crowd
- Complains loses rage
- Thaco and Big Ears attack
- Its raining bolts
- Thaco calls out GS
- Chief prays to Maglubiyet and seems to get no response
- Thaco and GS face off
- Complains and Thaco redefine 1/3 challenge rating
- Shield of Wonder battle
- Chaos ensues
- Complains gets bit by a demon-burr
- Chief enters the gateroom
- The dungeon occupants are set free
- Kin helps Chief
- Monsters fight with the guard
- Thaco and GS fight for the last time
- The gate is open
- Kin is recaptured
- Monster camping
- FM-K arrives at Brassmoon
- FM-K enters Brassmoon
- Minmax considers Charisma scores and gets pants
- Minmax fights GS
- Kin kills GS
- FMK is formed
- GAP continues their journey home
- Kin sleeps while Minmax prepares a party for her

Day 6
- "spoilers"




[Disclaimer: The posts that followed are titled "The Unofficial Timeline" as though I am right but just lack THunt's stamp of approval. While I am embarrassed to admit there are times I have thought this, it is not true now. What follows is what I feel is the most logical order of events, which is fully open to constructive criticism and amendment as necessary.]

[SGTdude]

This is the actual beginning of this thread since the first post will serve as a visual timeline of events in the comic.

I began the unofficial timeline back in February of 2011 while I was deployed to Afghanistan and it served as a good distraction for me. My goal then, as it is now, is to present, in an orderly manner, proof from the comic itself of what happens when. This timeline, being a purely analytical work, is not intended to dig in to why things happen, or even the extending ramifications of those things that happened. It just a metaphorical mile-marker system to serve as a guiding framework for understanding the comic.

I think many would wonder why I bother to do this at all, and so I will give these few reasons:
1) Its fun for me and, in my opinion, informative for others and has a lot of potential to be beneficial to the community
2) Its necessary because THunt does jump around in time while telling the story of the comic.
3) In my own little weird way, its the one thing I can do to show appreciation for the comic that has been a delight to read ever since it first appeared in color.

I am not planning on doing this completely by myself, but I am not exactly going to wait around for others to chime in to finish listing the major/significant/otherwise-notable events of a given day. I will continue to update the first post of the timeline at least until we have caught up to the most current strip (most current being whatever is most recent when this is actually finished).


THunt told me directly in Ustream back in 2011, regarding a question about the timeline, that he wanted the comic to speak for itself. I feel that ultimately it does. However I do want to present a small amount of information about myself and my method to show that I am not just wildly spouting opinions.



"What is my method?"
I go by actual clues from the comic itself to determine the passage of time, whether those clues be visual, dialogue, or direct statement in the comic. While others have in the past regarded this as mere speculation, I reassure you that I only state what can be confirmed by the existing pattern for the passage of time as set forth by THunt himself in the comic. This, unfortunately, does not cover everything. There are moments when time can not be precisely accounted. However there is enough evidence before and after these moments that allows us to make logical and reasonable assumptions about what took place. In such instances, I always take the stance of making the most conservative conclusion (meaning the one that would require the least amount of time to have passed) unless there is material in the comic to indicate that it could possibly be otherwise.

I will provide both links to the comics which show the passage of time as well as explanation for why we can know that time has passed. The first post will remain a listing of events for the sake of readability in terms of reviewing the timeline. I have also posted the map there as occasionally I will make reference to it. The first post may not reflect the order in which things are presented during the explanation posts (because it is often easier to deal with groups rather than go moment by moment), but should be considered the actual order in which events occur.

I am looking forward to putting this back together, but am definitely looking forward to input from the community along the way. I would ask that others providing input limit their comments to the actual days being covered at the time, or any day that has already been covered, for the sake of continued clarity and readability.


Thanks

[SGTdude]

Day 1

To begin to mark time in Goblins we have to have something to mark it with, and that quite simply does not exist in the comic until there is color. There is not a single useful reference to time among the strips that are in black and white. So while those strips could have occurred over a day, a week, or a year, there is nothing to indicate as much and so I lump them in with the first day.

I start recording time here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08122005/
The sky is blue here which is an obvious reference to daytime. It isnt much, but its all we have. Additionally, I have to point out that once THunt started coloring the comic, his art got increasingly detailed over time. That is good, but it makes the beginning of the timeline harder because some of the visual clues that appear later in the comic are not present yet, because he hadn't started coloring Goblins that way yet. So for now: blue = day.

While the next strip after that one does feature Hawl, the next significant strip to the timeline would be this one: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08212005/
Earlier, Forgath and Minmax without Kin (hereafter represented as FM-K) were in caves where it is not possible to tell time and there are no dialogue cues. That is one reason I dont use that as a mark of time to start of this group. The other reason is this is the first time we see FM-K under a blue sky. It might not be the same sky. It could be a whole other dimension due to the fact that a) the comic was still pretty zany at this time, and b) I wouldn't put it past Herbert to do such things when being mocked. But there is no reason to assume anything has occurred that is other than a normal presentation of simultaneous events. So, here FM-K and the future GAP are under the same sky at roughly the same time.

While Hawl showing up to the goblin camp is not significant, for other reasons I have to mention this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08262005/
Hawl was at the war camp. Now he has returned to a waypoint for himself and other monsters (if not his home). This is the first indication of significant passage of time seen in the comic. While we dont know how far this scene is from the warcamp, we are again left with no reason to assume this is on a different day. It also may be around noon as Hawl later references "lunch" but we dont know that for sure. What we do know is that here, just one strip later, Kore shows up. So this puts GAP, FM-K and Kore all on the 1st day at around the same time. Unfortunately the timeline is not quite so easy to figure out later on, so I definitely appreciate the simplicity of the timeline at this point.

We go back to GAP here but thats not important. Neither is the bounce back to Kore. But this is: http://www.goblinscomic.org/09232005/
For the first time we have night. Its obvious its night because its not blue, and blue=day. This is more like purple. So purple=night. While that seems to be an oversimplification, in reality its the beginning of a pattern that THunt apparently follows all the way up until the time of this writing. Although it could be argued that this is merely the shadow of overhanging trees, it is not because that is an argument built on bad assumption. First there is only one tree, not multiple trees, so the branches would have to extend pretty far. Its possible that there aren't more trees because THunt simply didnt draw more at this early stage of the comic when he meant it to be shadows and not night. But that doesnt explain why the 2nd panel of this strip shows the same exact shade of purple with no tree in sight. And, as if to remove all doubt, THunt goes and includes this:http://www.goblinscomic.org/09302005/.
Not a shadow. Night. Purple=night.

Or dawn.

I have gone back and forth over this over the past two years and at least a dozen re-readings of the whole comic with specific focus just to time elements. That last link could arguably be the moon or the sun. There have been times I have considered it to be both. There are simply no contextual clues to indicate which yet. The truth is that this is in fact both. That last link does in fact show a moon setting, and this brings the 1st day to a close. But the following strips clearly depict daytime, meaning that the sun has risen but not in view of the reader of the comic. But I will save that for the post about Day 2.

[SGTdude]

Day 2

I am going to start this, but not finish it right now because, unlike the previous day, there is a small amount of room for deviation in this day's events depending upon how contextual clues are interpreted. I did start the day with FM-K planning the attack on the war camp on the first post because it technically belongs here. The night is giving way to the day and this basically is the first action of this day.


The next strip after those events is the next significant strip in the timeline (although I wont put it on the first post and am only putting it here for evidence): http://www.goblinscomic.org/10012005/
The sky shifts in this comic from purple to blue, or from dawn to day. An argument could be made that this was a mistake, but it just so happens to be a consistent mistake (meaning all the purple panels are the same shade) so I find that hard to believe. Some might try to say there is no shift, but if you copy the screen on that strip and compare the first panel with the last, it will be abundantly clear that one has a pink hue and one is more bluish. This is significant because it depicts the transition of morning to day that will be used throughout the rest of the comic. I would say it happens rather quickly here, but I can think of one other place where the time change occurs at an equally rapid, if not faster, rate. What does this mean in terms of the length of a THuntonian day in terms of hours? I don't care because that doesn't matter to establishing a timeline of events. The pattern of blue to purple to pink to blue as a depiction of time passing, however is pretty much the most significant clue to time in the whole comic.

The next strip I want to mention for two reason is this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/10092005/
1) this is the first time we see GAP and FM-K together in the same strip.
2) this, without a doubt puts them on the same day and at the same time. And all under a blue sky.

I want to point out the 4th frame here because I am going to refer back to it shortly. And incidentally it also happens to be when the attack on the war camp begins.


The next strip I want to cover is also the first real problem: http://www.goblinscomic.org/10282005/
This strip, during what can be considered the beginning of the battle, the sky shifts again in a single strip. This time from blue to gray to grayer with rain. Is this still day 2? I say yes, now.

In my first couple of runs at analyzing the timeline, I was sure this was the real end to day 1. I was so convinced by the changing colors that I assumed it had to represent change of time. But its not. Its a storm. That 4th frame I referenced a bit back is proof, unless trees in THuntonia just like to bend at wild angles. To further dismiss thoughts of this being a time change, it is very possible for a day to go from sunny to black with thunder clouds and back to sunny in the real world in which we actually live, so seeing this in the comic is no stretch of the imagination. Finally, if this were a day change we could expect to see more purple changing to blue since THunt literally just established that pattern. But we don't. We get this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/12022005/
A shifting of gray back into the same blue we saw when this fight started. So then either this fight has taken 24hrs/1 full Thuntonian day, or it is just a storm. Logic, reason, and a conservative approach to analyzing time in the comic tells me it is the latter, not the former.

I go way out around the mulberry bush to make one point: at this very early stage in the comic it is possible to read a whole other day into the strip than what is actually there. So to put it plainly, without careful analysis there can be no guarantee that one has anything approximating an accurate understanding of the timeline in this comic.

I now have to mention this strip: http://www.goblinscomic.org/12122005/
This is the point when Dies Adventuring Party (referred to as DAP from here on) separates from the timelines of GAP and FM-K. Although technically he is synchronized with the other two groups at this exact moment, it is at this point in the normal reading of the comic that one would have to begin to jump ahead to follow DAP. This gets worse as it goes on. And since the goal here is cover days, and not groups, this is when the analysis will begin to jump around the comic, rather than in the order in which it is presented, in order to keep things in chronological order.

The next action that takes place in the comic, chronologially speaking is this:http://www.goblinscomic.org/03032006/
This is the real beginning of problems in the comic for those who take a stance of "the comic is basically presented chronologially". It gets more problematic to maintain such a view later, but even here it is impossible. Dies had his arm cut off and there is no reason to believe the wound was instantly cauterized. Although he is not in negative hit points, the logical conclusion is that he is bleeding to death. If we take the comic in the order it was presented as chronologial, then it would take at least an hour (if not several hours) for him to die, considering all we have seen GAP and FM-K do since he initially wandered off. So then a reasonable conclusion here is that while Dies is at the edge of this lake, GAP is still in the village fighting FM-K. Heck, the drows might even still be alive when this is happening. I spend a little bit of time on this because DAP is the group that is most chronologically behind in the comic. As things progress there is, from my accounting, no reason to see them doing anything but falling further and further behind. But that is the subject of discussion for later in this day and other days.

It is likely that the next comic strip that occurs is this one: http://www.goblinscomic.org/02032006/
GAP has fled their war camp while FM-K is obviously busy and is in a field somewhere. There is still a blue sky and this comes immediately after the battle, so there is no reason to think this is a new day, especially when there has been no reference to time passing. We return to FM-K still in the village and looting here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/02242006/. It could possibly occur before GAP's scene in the field, but whether it does or does not is irrelevant since they are occurring at around the same time. The only thing significant about the return to FM-K in the strip is the ending of Day 2, and we aren't there yet.

This is the next strip of significance: http://www.goblinscomic.org/03182006/
It is GAP, they are still on Day 2, but it contains the first reference to time as a measurement for travelling in the whole comic. That's pretty significant. So when GAP reaches the Swamp of silence, just remember: they are at least 1 day away. But for now they are still in the sunny portion of Day 2.

And now we return to DAP: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04082006/
Again, while the normal reading of the comic would seem to present that Dies is now on Day 3, there is nothing about the scenes that depict his actions that indicate this is true. Additionally, it would mean he passed out and woke up at roughly the same time one day later, and that it took Klik a whole day to build Dies new arm. That is all a little to circumstantial for me to buy into, when the easiest answer can not be refuted. This is taking place while GAP is still wandering towards the Swamp of Silence and FM-K is looting the village.

I am going to stop here for the night because its late and from here we get really far into the comic with Dies before he reaches the end of Day 2 along with GAP and FM-K. I will pick it up from here next time but will say, in case it is not obvious, everyone is free to discuss the events up until now regarding the order in which they occurred.

Thanks

[SGTdude]

This is continued analysis of Day 2

I ended with a link to Dies getting a new arm, and that is followed by one strip. Then we see GAP here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04152006/
This could possibly occur after moments that Dies goes through chronologically speaking, but there is absolutely no reference whatsoever to determine who comes first at this point, and all of the events for the next little bit are very close to being at the same time. So I think that it doesnt matter much which is listed first. I will say that it has occurred to me that the background in this strip and those that follow seem to indicate a transition to a later time in the afternoon than the background we saw in Dies' strip, but I will admit that that is completely speculative. To return to the facts, the only reason to consider this event not taking place on day 2 is because of a sunset which has occurred in the strip already in a normal, linear reading. There is no reason, however, to assume that sunset counted for GAP other than it is what we see in a normal linear reading. And that is not good enough because it has already been shown that such a reading does not present an accurate depiction of the events chronologically. Therefore, again taking a conservative approach to analysis, since there is nothing to show GAP has camped or otherwise went through another evening, the most reasonable conclusion is that they have not, and they are still on Day 2.

With regard to comments above about what came first, I am calling the next event as this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04222006/
This event, though, is very problematic and a potential spot for huge deviation. The problem is that, by a linear reading, we have already seen FM-K leave the goblin war camp and then the sun set in that same strip (for those who are confused, I have not addressed that sunset yet). I dont want to get into that strip yet, but I will say this: while we see FM-K leaving in that strip, we do not know that the sunset counts for them because they were not in the scene when it occurs. So the comic I linked could, potentially, be on day 3 (and at one time I believed such). However, there is no indication, other than the sunset strip, that FM-K has camped. So again with the conservative approach, causing as little time to pass as possible on the timeline in regards to events occurring, the logical conclusion here again is that this is during the afternoon of day 2. We do not see FM-K on day 2 again in the comic.

The next event that occurs (which completely contradicts the linear reading of the comic) is this one: http://www.goblinscomic.org/05082006/
If we read the comic linearly, we might think that FM-K is on Day 3 and GAP is on Day 3 or even 4. But this scene shows Dies with Klik having a conversation under the same blue sky that we saw him under when we last saw him waking up from Klik making his arm. This even is preceded by the re-introduction of the other PC's but there is a very obvious visual clue, in the form of the puffball butterfly, that their appearance is simultaneous with Dies approaching the Maze of Waterfalls (if you check the map, there is nothing else this place could possibly be).

One problem that could be presented is that very little time passed before the PC's were allowed to rejoin the game. But the problem there is that we dont know enough about THuntonia or how the game works in relation with this world to make this impossible. Their characters also don't seem like they took long to create, but that is just me. A last point, which certainly isn't absolute proof, is where Dies is in relation to the others and the Cryptic Fall War Camp (we know that the GAP clan is Cryptic Falls). The distance to the the Maze of Waterfalls is not that much different than the distance from the war camp to the Plains of Cactuu, which is where we know GAP went as they pass and directly reference the Ruins of the Thornback Clan. The map is by no means to scale, but if it is even remotely close to accurate, then this would explain how GAP can raid the travelers (along a road that is clearly depicted on the map) on the same day that Dies is approaching the Maze of Waterfalls. He did leave the war camp before GAP did and if he was unconscious for a short amount of time while Klik made his arm (which is the conclusion I take with a conservative approach), and this still leaves plenty of time for him to have crossed the road and be at the Maze of Waterfalls just ahead of GAP. The interaction with the PC's continues here and ends here where he encounters Viper clan.


So the next logical even for Dies, mostly because GAP and FM-K are still accounted for during this time of the day, is this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08272006/
We know that Dies had his wounds bound and then he was returned to the Viper Camp. There is nothing about this that indicates it must take more than a few moments. And then we have Dies waking up from unconsciousness as a result of healing potions (frame 7 of that strip), which we know do not take very long to work at all. So we are left with the logical conclusion being that Dies finding himself a prisoner of Viper Clan takes place at most a few hours after he first passed out by the river when his arm was chopped off. He is still on day 2. The for him being on day 2 is strengthened by this strip which shows us a blue sky, and for the first time clouds. There has been no passing of day into night presented for Dies. He is still under the same blue sky. As he must be here (because of the demand of the flow of conversation).

The last significant strip for Dies on this day is this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/11022006/
This technically goes further into day 2 as it deals with the invasion of the Viper camp, but that string of events in fact stretches into day three. So I am going to put off dealing with it in full until that day is deal with. But notice the first frame in the comic I linked. Dark purplish blue fading into orange = sunset. It might look like it could be sunrise from that one frame, but the other frames of that strip show an orange sky that is lighter at the bottom than it is at the top. So, for lack of a better description, time flows down in this strip. This is confirmed in the last frame of the strip that follows that one. And even more so here where we see light orange give way to darker orange give way to purpley blue give way to a blue that is near black and dotted with stars. This is the 2nd presentation of the passage of time in the comic (but the first I am dealing with in a detailed manner), and can be accurately used as evidence to weigh all future passages of time against. Im stopping here though, because, like I said, Dies goes on through the night with this sequence of events and we need to finish the chronology of day 2.

That brings us back, in terms of the linear progression of the comic, to this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04292006/
Here we have GAP camping for the night, obviously, after they have finished the battle at the war camp, talked about taking levels in the plains, discussed the plan to cut through the Swamp of Silence, and finally fled from the caravan that Fumbles basically attacked. Its clearly the end of day 2 because this sequence even references sleep heavily. And then there is this: the only reference in word form as I know it to time passing in the entire comic that is not a dialogue cue. I will reference it again when analysis of day 3 begins, but could not possibly ignore it and cover day 2 accurately.

This concludes day 2 for us, with the only other thing to mention is the fact that during day 2 Kore traveled to the war camp and arrived there on the following day. But I will deal with that more specifically on day 3's analysis.


Im going to take a break for a bit, so this would be a good time to bring up any questions/comments/concerns you have regarding days 1 and 2 in the comic.


Thanks

[SGTdude]

I just wanted to mention I wont be working on this for the next 24-30hrs, so it serves as a good break between days 2 and 3. I will try to provide such a break between each day going forward, but I always welcome discussion of any of the events which have already been covered so far. It is also ok to get into events that you think should be on a day that was already covered, but keep in mind that those discussions may in fact be getting ahead of the timeline.


Thanks

[SGTdude]

Might be another 48hrs until I update. I will get back to it as soon as I can.

[SGTdude]

Day 3

I am going to deal with Kore real quick. I want to deal with Dies to not lose the continuity, but I figure if I deal with Kore now he is out of the way for a while and it wont be as confusing to deal with Dies. So look at this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/03122006/
Technically Kore arrives at the war camp well after the battle at Viper clan is underway (and this is reflected in the first post), but its just easier to understand if I deal with him first.

This is Kore arriving at the Cryptic Falls war camp on day 3. We know this is true because we already established that FM-K attacks the war camp on day 2 and then sticks around to loot the place. While it is possible that they spent the night in the war camp, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that such action occurred. So then, when they leave and we see they sky go blue -> sun setting blue -> orange with darker sun setting -> purple with stars -> blue, we know that a day has passed and we just witnessed a transition from day 2 to 3. Any other conclusion is simply illogical and ignores very clear evidence. Kore continues to mess around in the village and we get this one singular clue in regards to time in the last frame: the goblins home is 8 days south of the war camp. Context pretty much demands that this is the destination Kore now choses as his next target and can reasonably be assumed to be the direction of his travel from here. I am ok with that because he only just arrives at the entrance of Dragon's Maw (with no need for sleep ever suggested) and this is only about 40% of the way there. This will come into play a little as we get further into it, but for now I'm mostly just getting ahead of myself.

Back to DAP. We observed them and Viper clan at the end of day 2 here and the battle that erupts on day 3 (since the next day technically starts at midnight) goes well into what can officially be called day three, which is first observable here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/03122007/
I wanted to point out that it was day 3 earlier in the comic, but the background sky, which is the only clue for making an accurate determination, was not transitioning to morning clearly enough for me to believe that such evidence would not be considered speculative opinion. In the first frames of that comic, however, there is a clear transition from a dark-purple sky to a light-purple sky. And note there are no stars. Two clues which have already been established as markers of time passing. The battle that is raging is clearly about to pass into the not-so-early hours of morning on day 3.

The hobgoblins begin chopping down DAP's tent shortly and this carries us further into the morning as we can see in the sixth frame. There you have the opposite of sunset presented. Now we know exactly how the day goes: light blue, blue, darker blue, orange, purple, darker purple, dark purple with stars, dark purple, lighter purple dark blue, lighter blue, ad infinitum. This is the ruler against which we measure the passage of time when considering the sky as evidence.

There is alot of jumping back and forth between DAP and GAP. And if that seems confusing now, just wait until I explain it from the perspective of dealing with GAP! Just know, from all the evidence that has been presented so far, that the battle goes on with various things taking place until it finally ends and we essentially lose track of DAP on the timeline here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/11172007/

A few items of note here. It is very likely that this battle ends after Kore has left (or at least begun to leave) the Cryptic Falls war camp due to the coloration of the sky. This means that, if Goblins took place in our reality, this battle went from around 12am until about 2pm or so. This one battle is pretty much my "Exhibit A" proof that time in THuntonia is not as rigid as it is in our reality, which seems as though there is all kinds of room for bending the rules, yet we have the transition established as a clearly fixed rule in this reality. DAP enters the Well of Darkness and, effectively, disappear from the timeline in regards to an accurate accounting. This is because there is no overwhelmingly clear dialogue clues about how much time has passed and the only visual clues are circumstantial. To be clear: the amount of time DAP spends in the Well of Darkness is my opinion based on very limited information. I know that people will accuse me of presenting my opinion even though I just admitted to it, which is why I will mention it again when we get to day 4. But I will, when we get there, present the reasons I believe DAP spends the night in the dungeon.

I am going to shift back to GAP at this point (since they are the only ones left, in terms of actual strips in the comic, who appear on day 3), but not before taking a break. But just to provide a glimpse of where we are starting...it is right where we left them with GAP realizing fumbles has abandoned them here. I will mention, and this is opinion, that GAP is probably waking up some time around when Fox gets speared by Dies' hand. Regardless of the accuracy of that last statement, they are clearly on day 3.


more to follow soon enough


Thanks

[SGTdude]

This is continued analysis of day 3

I will deal only with the first real adventure for GAP in this post, because after this explanation becomes more time consuming even though it is still pretty clear.

So after GAP loses Fumbles, we see them next here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/05132006/
This is still day 3. Back when I took a simpler approach (please note that simpler often does not result in accurater) I considered this to be another day. There is no reason to think that is the case. The argument could be made that it is dark in the background, but that doesn't work because the color of the background does not match any color in the spectrum, which we have already seen by way of a linear reading of the comic, that represents the passage of time. A natural and logical conclusion would then be that it is for mood and setting more than time. Then there is this. The first frame demands that GAP is on day 3, the same day as the one where they woke up and found Fumbles missing. They said they had to walk a day (most conservative estimate) to get to the Swamp of Silence (the only place on the map they could be at given their path of travel) and have already camped for one night after walking a ways to get to the road where they encountered the caravan. They must be in the Swamp of Silence on day 3.

That is a bad thing. At least from a chronology stand point.

Much like DAP, which I have referenced but not dealt with yet, there is no way to account for how much time takes place in the Swamp of Silence, both because of the background colors used and because part of the encounter is underground. There is this spot where one could argue they were knocked out for a while. Only it wasn't all of them (Big Ears survived) and that comic only shows Thaco unconscious. There is no reason to assume a day has passed in the swamp. Once they enter the cave, a day could have passed. We just don't know for sure. It wasn't as long of an encounter as the Hobgoblin invasion of the Viper Clan, but that isn't really a good measuring stick. So we are left to assume that no day has passed just because there is no information suggesting as much, and because we can be fairly confident that no day passed in the swamp outside.

And then there is this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/08182006/
It seems that events that appear in the same comic are occurring in the same time, even if depicted in different settings, although that can not be used as an absolute rule. What we do know is that THunt says we see Fumbles "later", and so we know for sure that's what time it is: later. I would further present, however, that it is a blue sky when we see Fumbles (just like when Big Ears noticed he was gone) and that Brassmoon City is not that far from the Swamp of Silence. I am completely fine with saying we are still on day 3 here, and I would suggest that any who think either GAP or Fumbles are on day 4 should present some kind of strong argument or evidence for it, because there really doesn't seem to be one.

We see GAP outside of the dungeon crawl they were in, albeit short, here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/09232006/
This sky is the same blue that we saw Fumbles in when we were told it was later. This seems to indicate that GAP has, in a sense, caught up and arrived at later. So GAP is on the same day Fumbles was on when he approached Brassmoon City, which most reasonably is 3. But this is important as well for other reasons. Like the fact of...oh look, Kore! They spot him (its not going to be some other character wearing a door on his back) at least one days travel away. This helps us establish Kore's movement rate because, keep in mind, GAP already did travel as close to one full day (i.e. 24hs) away from the village and they were kind of meandering. Kore has been walking with purpose towards his destination (we have no reason to assume he would do otherwise, and the next strip actually supports the idea) and is still one day away from where GAP is at the time. It is also worth noting he is not heading in the direction of Brassmoon, as GAP is, which makes it even more reasonable they are not that far away having come from the Swamp of Silence.

That brings us to this strip: http://www.goblinscomic.org/11262006/
We don't know for sure how much time has passed in getting to Brassmoon, or how long GAP has been observing the city from the safety of the woods (although the dialogue doesn't seem to indicate that it has been long). We just know it is night. This can potentially be a little confusing because we just saw, in a linear reading of the comic, the hobgoblin invasion of Viper clan and then jumped to these guys. So it must be the exact same time, right? Wrong. But not in this specific case. Using a method of "when the comic jumps from one group to the other the time must be the same" is just as erroneous as "when it jumps and the time seems to be the same it must be". We can only judge a group's timeline against itself, and not against the actions of another group. In this particular case, it is extremely probable that GAP has reached Brassmoon at some point during the hobgoblin encounter, but remember that went all night and into the day. So where does this match up with that? I think everything we have seen of GAP and the map indicates that it would be towards the beginning of the starry night, and not well into it.

Consider also, this is not proof but just food for thought, we saw Fumbles tortured most likely right before the sunset at the latest since there was still a blue sky when Dellyn the Goblin Slayer (hereafter GS) was summoned, so it seems likely this is sometime before midnight, thus day 3. Also consider the background here. The mountain shaped objects we see in the sixth frame could likely be the same place where we saw GAP when they saw Kore off in the distance, and that really doesn't seem that far from Brassmoon. But this last bit is, admittedly, speculation. Nonetheless, GAP enters the sewers and disappears from the timeline, only to reappear underneath a dark sky...later.

I am counting their actions in the city as part of Day 4 for the sake of analysis, but will reiterate that the first post will continue to be the most accurate presentation of the order of events.


There will be at least a 24hr break before the analysis resumes.

Thanks

[SGTdude]

Dear time-out function of these forums,

I hate you with the fire of a thousand suns. Even though there is no reason, without our current technology level, that you can't keep me logged in, you continue to curse me by causing my long posts to be deleted.

You suck.

I hope you get raped by penis monkeys.


Love,
SGTdude


PS - I will try to recreate this post later today.

[Wolfie]

there is a button when you log in that says "keep me logged in" that should stop that. Also, there is a "draft" button at the bottom of the Editor page that lets you save what you're doing.

[SGTdude]

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

Why can't the wish game be real so I can wish myself back in time!?! Oh yeah, cuz somebody would corrupt it.

Oh well, at least I know now.


EDIT - Tried logging out and in, there is no "keep me logged in" button, just an option to auto log in upon site visit. Unless that does the same thing as you are talking about. If not, is this option available through other means?

[Wolfie]

EDIT - Tried logging out and in, there is no "keep me logged in" button, just an option to auto log in upon site visit. Unless that does the same thing as you are talking about. If not, is this option available through other means?

Yes it does what I'm talking about.

[SGTdude]

So, thanks to forum stupidity (it is completely NOT my fault for not saving my post before trying to submit it and getting timed out to lose all of it), analysis is delayed.

I will say this, When I pick up with day 4 I am going to start by showing what is not part of day 4 as I think it will not only help with explanation of that day, but also the few remaining days and all days that are forthcoming.

My hope is to have that up sometime tomorrow night before 12am GMT-5.

Thanks

[RedwoodElf]

Why not compose your long posts in notepad or something and just copy-paste them into the forum when you're ready?

[SGTdude]

Laziness. I generally write an analysis post when Im stirred to do one, and then I am already looking at the comic and in the forums. So it would just take more effort to do it elsewhere and then copy it in.

Im not really that lazy (as the analysis shows) but sometimes it affects little things like that. I am going to just make sure to save the draft more often if I know its going to be a long one. And days 4 and on are almost all long ones :S

[SGTdude]

I tried but I just couldnt pull it together. I considered going forward with some of my analysis regardless of how I felt, but that would be forced. And honestly I am more interested in getting the facts straight and presenting a clear timeline in whatever time it takes rather than doing an update just cuz its due. I dont know when I will update the timeline again, but it will be relatively soon.

Feel free to discuss in the mean time.

[SGTdude]

Day 4

I am going to start dealing with day 4 with what we know and then just see how that goes as I progress because I haven't really felt like doing this lately but dont want to leave it sitting anymore.

So here we go.

GAP is on day 4 in the very early hours of the day in Brassmoon City : http://www.goblinscomic.org/01282007/
That may seem an odd place to start day 4 but Thaco does tell us that they have been in the sewers for two hours, and that is enough time for me to consider them to have passed the 12am mark into the next day. Maybe they didnt, but it doesn't really matter because they stay in Brassmoon for a while. And while lots of stuff happens, in regards to time not much really happens. I will point out this because it does show the moon (and a pretty one at that) and we are once again in the same problem as before: either GAP spent 24hrs in the sewers or it has been not much time. For the reasons already discussed on previous days, the conclusion is that not much time has passed.

So jumping ahead we find ourselves here: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04162007/
A problem that could seem evident is that the strip is immediately preceded by a scene with DAP in the beginnings of the battle as night/morning begins to turn into day. However, it has already been established that these events, although seeming concurrent by a linear reading of the comic, are not occurring at the same time at all. I am sure I will make a detailed argument for this point in the future, readdressing points in the timeline already covered, but I just don't feel like it right now. So all I will say to this end is go back and check the first post and the posts about previous days because it is a little tiresome to make the same argument over and over. The bottom line is, as I have mentioned before, that a timeline for a group can not be effectively measured against another group and it has to be, first and foremost, instead measured against itself in regards to the events that actually take place.

Getting back to it: http://www.goblinscomic.org/04212007/
Here we can see the blue sky behind GAP as they enter the hall. And then stuff happens. Alot of stuff (enough for them to level apparently), but Im kind of tired so I will just jump to one last comic and make one point.

http://www.goblinscomic.org/02142008/
Either GS is completely full of crap, or whatever happens after that comic is on the next day. Remember this when we get to day 5 (not really done with day 4 yet cuz i want to make another more organized post), because whatever happens for GAP on day 4...it ends here.

[RedwoodElf]

Day 4

http://www.goblinscomic.org/02142008/
Either GS is completely full of crap, or whatever happens after that comic is on the next day. Remember this when we get to day 5 (not really done with day 4 yet cuz i want to make another more organized post), because whatever happens for GAP on day 4...it ends here.

With all this in-depth analysis, you missed panel 7 of this page?

http://www.goblinscomic.org/01242008/

GS announced the "execution" for dawn the next day. That gives you a definite benchmark.

[SGTdude]

Right. Which is what I said.

In a fragmented way I dealt with GAP in Brassmoon on day 4 and said that it ends pretty much when GS announces the execution the next day in the last link I provided.

In the one you gave it just shows that the execution announcements were placed with more to be placed "before this afternoon" further securing the fact that they were still on the same day. So basically from the point when GAP enters Brassmoon until the comic just before the beginning of the execution is all day 4, assuming that it was near or after 12am when then entered the city which we just cant know for sure (which is why I make the assumption for the sake of timeline orderliness).

I havent updated the first post yet, so I do plan to go back and give a more detailed listing of what happened on day 4 later. I just didnt feel like doing it tonight and decided, instead, to capture the book-ends of day 4.

[SGTdude]

This is not abandoned, in case anyone is interested. It just takes a certain analytical passion which I have not had lately because the winter months make my job particularly intense and difficult, which has robbed me of the desire to do this. I promise I will pick this back up this year.

[Nerre]

I just found this post I totally forgot. Seems that not many days have passed so far. The dragon maw dungeon is about half way from the cryptic falls warcamp and the cryptic falls village. The YaB told Kore it is about 8 days south. Kore did arrive the next day after the battle or less, still fires where still smoking. Okay, Kore is slow, but not that slow. I don't think not more than a week has passed since the attack on the warcamp at the beginning of the comic. With Kore having walked about 50% of the distance said to be a 8 day travel your theory should not have much more days than the 4 you already wrote down, if it should be close to what Thunt might has in mind.
http://www.goblinscomic.org/03262006/

[SGTdude]

Altogether I think maybe 6 days have passed, but I cant remember exactly. I am going to update this soonish. I dont know when, but definitely before January.

[SGTdude]

I was going to deal with particular details on what happens on what day.

But then I remembered that this is not a precise listing of every comic or every major event from the comic in chronological order. The purpose of this timeline is to provide a "mile marker" system, pointing out important events with the time that they occur so that a linear reading of the comic is less difficult in regards to understanding what happens when (at least with this guide as a reference anyways).

So I am done dealing with Day 4.

I could say I am done dealing with GAP on day 4 but there really is a few problems with that, based on who else you want me to refer to:
- Kore does not show up in the comic until later on when he runs into GAP, so there is no point in speculating where he is exactly on day 4
- FM-K is not in Brassmoon yet, so (see above)
- DAP is in WoD and exits...well, honestly nobody knows when they exit and anyone who tells you they do is wrong. At least for now.

So the rest of this timeline will focus on (in order) GAP, FMK, GAP, Kore, FMK. I will mention DAP in there somewhere but it really doesn't matter where since they can not be tied to the timeline in any way at the moment.

Off to start day 5.
[Edit: let it be known at this time that I am going to go back and clean up days 4 and 5 on the first post "soonish". I also plan on going back to cause each entry to be a link to a comic, which will make the first post a single reference guide by itself. But that last part will happen "not so soonish".

[SGTdude]

Day 5

And it was day: http://www.goblinscomic.org/02232008/
The strip before this, GS said "tomorrow", now his crusty old herald says "morning". That is why it is tomorrow morning.

Seriously though, there is no reason to assume anything happened other than what is presented: that the day passed and now we are looking at the dawn hours of day 5. One could look at the last frame of that comic to see the sky in the same pattern which has become...well, the norm. It shows a pink sunrise coming up against the deep blue/purple of very early morning. The next comic shows a bit more of this sky.


This is the next strip I will mention as relevant: http://www.goblinscomic.org/03202008/
If you had any doubt about the sky and its colors, here is the rainbow. Taste it. Blue, reddish-pink of dawn, bright golden yellow of full morning giving way to day time. Its obvious that not much time has passed, but I point this strip out just for the reference of sky again as a mark of time.

Now lets skip to this: http://www.goblinscomic.org/10222009/
Between the last comic I linked and this one stuff happens. Alot of stuff happens. So much stuff happens, in fact, that I almost wonder how all of that stuff can possibly take place in a few hours of a single day (heck lets even call it as many as 12) when events with DAP and Viper Clan that are similar in scope seem to take nearly a whole day (like its seriously almost 24hrs, if not more). But the comic speaks for itself as THunt has previously declared. So there is no reason to assume that any more time has passed in the happening of all this stuff than what is minimally required, which I would conservatively put at about 4-6hrs. But back to the link: 9th frame, blue sky. Same argument as before: either this is a whole day later or its the same day. Logic demands the latter is most likely. Now wasn't there somebody else in this comic?

Oh yeah, there they are: http://www.goblinscomic.org/11242009/
At one point I assumed this had to be a new day because of how destroyed the statue of GS was. That no longer makes sense though. The man was literally set to be their hero. And then he unleashed monster-hell on them all and basically almost destroyed the whole city. So, yeah, Im ok with assuming they destroyed the statue in a few hours tops. And then stuff happens.

Then we end day 5: http://www.goblinscomic.org/09102010/
This technically isnt really the end of day 5 because we can see the sun setting and the stars are out. So its night time and day 5 ends at 11:59:59pm, which is later than it is right at this strip I am sure. Nonetheless, it is the end of action on day 5.

Where is GAP?

Did they make it to day 6 or not? Does the latest couple of strips indicate that FM-K did in fact travel through time to go back and meet GAP on the bridge to DMaw since they were so clearly ahead of GAP in terms of time?

Here is what I will say about that on this day: I was wrong on the old forums when I said it couldn't be Minmax who said hey because it required time travel. I basically made an assumption that I will not get into right now (cuz technically that is day 6). I will only say it is not time travel because THunt doesnt say it is. It is his comic and he can do what he wants. We the readers, even the possibly overly analytical ones, are left to take the pieces he presents to us and make it into a cohesive whole. So now that we are where we are (even though we are not there yet because I have not covered those strips) it is easy to say that GAP and FM-K are on the same day because we see them there. And there is no time travel for all the reasons I mentioned in the old version of the timeline (basically it breaks the rules of reality THunt has set, and he hasn't indicated he is willing to do that yet). As for a detailed analysis of why GAP and FM-K can meet up on a Bridge on the River Dmaw...

well you can read all about that on day 6.