Twitter: [now] new colourist, again.

[Chelsa121]

Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

I am particularly fond of Cameron as a character study, and the giant musical parade scene.

[Earthen]

I love Clue: The Movie because no matter how many times I watch it, I can always find a reason to laugh at it again. Tim Curry is hilarious in this one.

[mustache_man]

As I understand business, there is really only justification for complaint if you haven't gotten what you paid for.

There's a great number of other situations where you can complain. Not only that, you can take people to court (and win). One such instance is when a blown deadline affects you adversely. I'm not claiming this is the case.

Edit: Just to illustrate with a real example. A few years back, my parents decided to do some work on their house and they wanted it to be ready for their anniversary as they were planning a big party. They hired a contractor and he promised all the work would be ready by october. To cut the story short, they only finished in December. Not only they couldn't have their party in november, Christmas was almost ruined. It ended in a lawsuit and reparations had to be paid.

Goblins is free. You can donate, but that is not the same thing as paying for a service. In fact, that's more like paying for services already rendered because you feel like it, so you already got your product. Complaining about missed deadlines, is, was, and always will be moot unless you are offering Tarol a cheque for every completed comic he posts on a contractual schedule and he has agreed to accept your money to provide this service, which has not, in fact, ever happened insofar as I am aware.

I can turn on my ad-blocker. That reduces his revenue. One reader is a drop in a pond, of course. But if enough people are bothered enough to do that it becomes significant. And it may add up to the point advertisers start to pull out. Note that I'm not suggesting it will actually happen. But to deny his revenue depends on his reader is a bit naive.

In other news, when I donated to his house fund, I received my comic panel in a reasonably timely fashion, and it is now hanging on my wall as I type this. That was offered as goods (incentive, to be perfectly accurate) in exchange for money. So, before you get up in arms about not getting what you paid for, be sure that you know exactly what it is that you are paying for. And if you haven't paid... Well... Why are we having this discussion in the first place?

I'm glad you're happy. I'm not trying to suggest you shouldn't be. I'm also not up in arms about anything (I assume you were addressing me, because you were quoting what I wrote), I'm voicing an opinion and I'm doing it in a calm and polite fashion. If you don't want to have such a discussion, I suggest you don't.

[Overshot]

planinarmani aka Overshot, this is your first official warning, creation of multiple accounts with the purpose of trolling is not allowed. following violations of the rules will result in regulated ability to post, then temp ban in increasing amounts of time, and lastly perma ban, this ban will be made on username as well as IP.[/mod]

Actually, planinarmani is my brother, we're accessing the webpage over the same router, and are in fact 2 different people with a very similar opinion. You shouldn't be so quick to judge/assume.

[Krulle]

5. If you have a serious issue with another forum member, please contact one of the moderators in charge of the forum in question or a global moderator/admin if the issue isnÔÇÖt specific to one forum. If you have a problem with a particular moderator or admin you can reach out to another moderator (we have a lot of them) without fear of reprisal.

in regards to 5, if you feel all the "fanboys" are a problem, feel free to write a PM, but do not make an outrageous post like the above.

7. Holy shit, you can see a man's nipple, bicep and serratus anterior muscle. Too much for you?

Well, I know 15 year olds where that alone might be problematic.
But that's not all that can be seen in your picture.
And yes, your image shows therefore something, which by subject is not PG-13....
It is borderline, and my opinion is just okay. But only because those who do not understand it won't see anything except for a Narcissus, and those who do understand it, well, for them it's too late anyway, PG13 or not... (and those see something even worse than a Narcissus)

[CooksACarrot]

I love Clue: The Movie because no matter how many times I watch it, I can always find a reason to laugh at it again. Tim Curry is hilarious in this one.

I love Clue it is one of my all time favourites. Have you ever seen Murder by Death? It isn't as good, and there are a lot of inside jokes, but it is still pretty funny. I know it is on Netflix in US and Canada.

[Chelsa121]

I can turn on my ad-blocker. That reduces his revenue. One reader is a drop in a pond, of course. But if enough people are bothered enough to do that it becomes significant. And it may add up to the point advertisers start to pull out. Note that I'm not suggesting it will actually happen. But to deny his revenue depends on his reader is a bit naive.

To answer the only point I personally feel is relevant: This does not entitle you to anything. It entitles the advertisers to pull out if they want to, if enough people are actually so upset that they stop enjoying their free comic. The advertisers are paying Tarol. Not you. You'd come across those ads on any comic you viewed. You'd come across those ads on any page on the internet you viewed. That Tarol can make money on that is entirely irrelevant. He doesn't owe you anything. You don't pay anything, at all.

Turning off your adblock? Really? That's what entitles you to complain?

I'll bet you didn't even pay for the adblock.

[MakesNoSense]

You're still running with your hot dog thing and it still makes no sense whatsoever.
If I go to McDonald's, order a BigMac and they say it'll be ready in 2-3 minutes and it's been half an hour and I'm still waiting, I'm damn well going to complain. So will a lot of people. And those complaint's will be 100% valid. Nobody is asking for anything that's not on the menu. The only thing "on the menu" here is a webcomic, not hamburguers, not hot dogs. The only thing "he owes" his fans is a webcomic, and only as long as he wants to make a living out of it (if he decides he doesn't, too bad).

I never wanted an explanation for this hiatus. I honestly thought the first communication from his wife, saying they were going through personal issues was more than enough. The only problem I have with this whole thing, is the same problem I've always had: The deadlines that are almost always blown (and these are self-imposed deadlines to boot). You may think it's silly if you want, but I tend to judge these things by my own standards and whenever I set myself a deadline, not only I try to keep it, but I also set one that I'm reasonably sure I actually can keep.

Btw, keeping your deadlines is not a policy that applies specifically to some sort of businesses. It's something that applies to all kinds of business. Someone already said (not sure if in this thread) a webcomic business like his, is a whole different beast, with Thunt being an artist instead of a more regular contractor, but for more conventional businesses, not keeping your deadlines constantly paints you as unreliable and that kills a business as quick as anything, but I'm sure you already know that.

As I understand business, there is really only justification for complaint if you haven't gotten what you paid for. If you're at McDonald's, you ask for a refund and leave if they don't provide the service you're looking for, but if they're giving out free ice cream, and they run out, you have no legal or logical basis for complaint.

Goblins is free. You can donate, but that is not the same thing as paying for a service. In fact, that's more like paying for services already rendered because you feel like it, so you already got your product. Complaining about missed deadlines, is, was, and always will be moot unless you are offering Tarol a cheque for every completed comic he posts on a contractual schedule and he has agreed to accept your money to provide this service, which has not, in fact, ever happened insofar as I am aware.

In other news, when I donated to his house fund, I received my comic panel in a reasonably timely fashion, and it is now hanging on my wall as I type this. That was offered as goods (incentive, to be perfectly accurate) in exchange for money. So, before you get up in arms about not getting what you paid for, be sure that you know exactly what it is that you are paying for. And if you haven't paid... Well... Why are we having this discussion in the first place?

Apologies in advance if I have attributed the quote to the wrong person by accident. I am apparently only allowed to embed three quotes, so I pared it down to the one, but it's been a very long time since I've been on any forums and I kind of forget who said which or how the HTML works, so yeah. I'll fix it if I'm wrong and you tell me.

You attributed the quote to me, but I didnt write that. My view tends to be very similar to yours however.

[Chelsa121]

Yeah, sorry, I'll go back and fix it. I freely admit that my Forum-Fu is in poor form(at).

[LAYF]

planinarmani aka Overshot, this is your first official warning, creation of multiple accounts with the purpose of trolling is not allowed. following violations of the rules will result in regulated ability to post, then temp ban in increasing amounts of time, and lastly perma ban, this ban will be made on username as well as IP.[/mod]

Actually, planinarmani is my brother, we're accessing the webpage over the same router, and are in fact 2 different people with a very similar opinion. You shouldn't be so quick to judge/assume.

well, that is sad then, tell your brother that we are sorry, but as we have no prof of this we will use the same method as is used in a school, if some kids keep accessing non access material, all computers and thereby all students gets a limit to their internet access.

In this case you and your brother should have thought about it before you both decided to use the same IP to in-rich/troll a forum.

[Chelsa121]

planinarmani aka Overshot, this is your first official warning, creation of multiple accounts with the purpose of trolling is not allowed. following violations of the rules will result in regulated ability to post, then temp ban in increasing amounts of time, and lastly perma ban, this ban will be made on username as well as IP.[/mod]

Actually, planinarmani is my brother, we're accessing the webpage over the same router, and are in fact 2 different people with a very similar opinion. You shouldn't be so quick to judge/assume.

Pics or it didn't happen. :o)

[MakesNoSense]

From what I understand, claiming his fanbase paid for his house is an overstatement. The fans paid (or helped anyway) for a down payment (I don't know if its all paid for now). But those weren't wages either, they were donations. If you start to equate donations to wages, then you equate his fans to his bosses and make every single demand anyone that's donated anything, 100% valid.

You can call it a donation if you want. I see it as payment for a service given. Meaning, he put up a comic at his expense and said "if you like my work, you can support it." And some people took him up on that. That makes it income. The way you seem to view things, people cannot own a business, they all need to work for someone else. You can have income without being permanently accountable to your customers in perpetuity. His fans are not his bosses, they are his customers. The fact that they buy his product does not give them the right to expect that every single demand is 100% valid. No more than it makes it 100% valid for you to have bought at McDonalds before and to go back and demand Hot Dogs on their menu.

You're still running with your hot dog thing and it still makes no sense whatsoever.
If I go to McDonald's, order a BigMac and they say it'll be ready in 2-3 minutes and it's been half an hour and I'm still waiting, I'm damn well going to complain. So will a lot of people. And those complaint's will be 100% valid. Nobody is asking for anything that's not on the menu. The only thing "on the menu" here is a webcomic, not hamburguers, not hot dogs. The only thing "he owes" his fans is a webcomic, and only as long as he wants to make a living out of it (if he decides he doesn't, too bad).

I never wanted an explanation for this hiatus. I honestly thought the first communication from his wife, saying they were going through personal issues was more than enough. The only problem I have with this whole thing, is the same problem I've always had: The deadlines that are almost always blown (and these are self-imposed deadlines to boot). You may think it's silly if you want, but I tend to judge these things by my own standards and whenever I set myself a deadline, not only I try to keep it, but I also set one that I'm reasonably sure I actually can keep.

Btw, keeping your deadlines is not a policy that applies specifically to some sort of businesses. It's something that applies to all kinds of business. Someone already said (not sure if in this thread) a webcomic business like his, is a whole different beast, with Thunt being an artist instead of a more regular contractor, but for more conventional businesses, not keeping your deadlines constantly paints you as unreliable and that kills a business as quick as anything, but I'm sure you already know that.

No, Thunt does not "owe" you a webcomic. It is incredibly arrogant of you to believe that.

You are allowed to judge by your own standards - you are allowed not to put your goals in public view so that others cannot comment on them. If you believe that this paints Thunt as unreliable, that is entirely up to you to believe. But that is his business and his risk if he wants to take it - it is neither right nor wrong, nor is it something which should offend anyone or cause them to feel a lack of respect. As for it killing his business, we are all here talking about it still, so his business is probably doing just fine as it still has its customer base.

Do you think it was unprofessional that J.R.R. Tolkien took about a year off while writing the Lord of the Rings? Is it disrespectful if an author (and there are cases too numerous to count) delays a deadline because the quality of their work was not up to their standards and they needed to fix it?

Thunt offers a webcomic on a platform that is free for you to view. That is the ONLY thing "on the menu". Asking for him to keep his goals as your deadlines, or to communicate with the public before he is ready... that is NOT "on the menu". So... stop complaining about what is not available.

[Krulle]

Q: Do we need an unmoderated thread, where everyone can vent any frustration in any formulation?

This thread is already close to it... a tad too close for my taste...

[mustache_man]

To answer the only point I personally feel is relevant: This does not entitle you to anything. It entitles the advertisers to pull out if they want to, if enough people are actually so upset that they stop enjoying their free comic. The advertisers are paying Tarol. Not you. You'd come across those ads on any comic you viewed. You'd come across those ads on any page on the internet you viewed. That Tarol can make money on that is entirely irrelevant. He doesn't owe you anything. You don't pay anything, at all.

I never claimed I pay for the comic. If you can't interpret a small paragraph it's not my problem. Again, I didn't say I pay for the comic directly. I said his revenue depends on his readers. The more readers he has, the more money he gets from advertisements. The less readers he has (or the more start using ad blockers) the less money he makes. It's not such a difficult concept to grasp. Advertisers don't give him money because he's such a nice dude. They do it because he's got tons of readers that keep his websites traffic up.

Turning off your adblock? Really? That's what entitles you to complain?

I didn't say I'd turn on my adblock for his site. I said i could. Some guy already posted that he would. I'm sure there are people that leave it on and feel no need to disclose it.

I fell I'm entitled to voice my opinions and there's no rule against it as long as it's done respectfully. I feel I'm entitled to complain about his update schedule, because he keeps posting one and not keeping it. I wouldn't say a pip if he came out and said that Goblins will not follow any set schedule anymore, but he never says that. So as long as he posts a schedule I'll be bothered by the fact he can't keep it. I already expect him not to keep it, but it still rubs me the wrong way, just not enough to rage about it. Same thing with his blog thing. I don't need, nor want his explanation (it all sounds too personal), but it bothers me that he keeps posting deadlines.

You don't have to agree with my opinions, but if you're going to dispute them, at least get them right.

I'll bet you didn't even pay for the adblock.

So? I'll bet you didn't pay for firefox or chrome either. Considering statistics alone, there's also a fair chance you didn't even pay for windows.

[nikohl]

No, Krulle. Having an unmoderated thread on a moderated forum is, to me, far too much like having a "no-laws corner" in every town. Wanna stab someone? Better not do it here, better go to the no-laws corner where I won't get in trouble!

It's just inviting a whole bunch of sweary, flamey, possibly illegal trouble, and then when it -needs- moderating, mods can't step in without breaking their own rules and getting yelled at.

[LAYF]

[mod="This is not a warning"]

This is not a warning

But, this thread is getting way out of hand, this thread is for discussing tweets and blog posts, not ethics of jobs/pay/work

Please return to the original topic.[/mod]

and Krulle, Nikohl ninja'd me, we will not have a "spam all you want" thread, it will only be a breeding place for more ill tempered posts I feel.

[nikohl]

planinarmani aka Overshot, this is your first official warning, creation of multiple accounts with the purpose of trolling is not allowed. following violations of the rules will result in regulated ability to post, then temp ban in increasing amounts of time, and lastly perma ban, this ban will be made on username as well as IP.[/mod]

Actually, planinarmani is my brother, we're accessing the webpage over the same router, and are in fact 2 different people with a very similar opinion. You shouldn't be so quick to judge/assume.

Aww maaaaan... you're going to get me in trouble. I'm trying to be nice in this thread.

But really? Patrick Bateman Avatar Dude swaggers in yelling about betas and testosterone, then gets caught multi-ing to back himself up in an argument, and falls back on "it's my brother you guys " as an excuse? I've not had such a good laugh in weeks. Either you are the king of lame excuses, or you live at home with your mama, and either of those is enough to give me the jollies, given the context.

so alpha. such forum game. wow.

[Krulle]

Advertisers don't pay for users with an ad-blocker...

The ad-tech allows advertisers to pay only for shown ads. They don't need to pull out, as they only pay for what they get anyway.
Per view and per click.

ProjectWonderful is different with ads. There you pay for time... But google and most ad systems work with pay-per-ad-load-and-ad-click.

[mustache_man]

No, Thunt does not "owe" you a webcomic. It is incredibly arrogant of you to believe that.

You are allowed to judge by your own standards - you are allowed not to put your goals in public view so that others cannot comment on them. If you believe that this paints Thunt as unreliable, that is entirely up to you to believe. But that is his business and his risk if he wants to take it - it is neither right nor wrong, nor is it something which should offend anyone or cause them to feel a lack of respect. As for it killing his business, we are all here talking about it still, so his business is probably doing just fine as it still has its customer base.

I never said it's not his choice to runs his business as he sees fit. I did say his inability to keep deadlines makes him unreliable in that respect. it does. I doubt I'm the only one who thinks that way and you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that this isn't true. It's just that many people aren't bothered by that. I didn't claim his business is dying or dead. That would be dumb as even I am still here. I doubt that behavior wins many hearts though and I can how some people can be turned away by it.

Do you think it was unprofessional that J.R.R. Tolkien took about a year off while writing the Lord of the Rings? Is it disrespectful if an author (and there are cases too numerous to count) delays a deadline because the quality of their work was not up to their standards and they needed to fix it?

Thunt offers a webcomic on a platform that is free for you to view. That is the ONLY thing "on the menu". Asking for him to keep his goals as your deadlines, or to communicate with the public before he is ready... that is NOT "on the menu". So... stop complaining about what is not available.[/quote]

He can take whatever time off he wants. He can be gone for 2 years or forever. It's his choice and he's the one that has to deal with the consequences. But he's the one who sets his own deadlines, and he doesn't blow them on occasion when something out of the ordinary happens. He does it all the time. The consequence of that is that some of his fans are bothered. He has to deal with that too. Just because you don't like to hear it, doesn't make it a lie.

You're starting to sound angry and I don't want to deal with that, so I'll stop responding to you and if you want to keep raging I'll just block you. You'll not convince me and I'll not convince you.

[Liesmith]

I think an unmoderated thread is a great idea, as long as it actually is unmoderated (aside from spambot cleanup when necessary, but I don't think I've ever seen a bot here). People can say whatever they want in there, and if you don't like it, it's extremely easy to avoid. I think the only reasons to mod someone in a thread like that would be if they were doing something illegal (I don't think a moderated thread would prevent that sort of behavior to begin with), interfering with the operation of the forum (ie, loading tons of files, or manually spamming to keep others from being able to communicate in the thread), or loading graphic content (I don't know who exactly hosts this forum, but I don't think they'd appreciate it being bogged down with porn).

I don't really see a downside to such a forum, and I can see some benefit to it. We can't keep someone with unpopular opinions from being dogpiled by people who disagree, but we can allow them at least an opportunity to speak without fear of any official silencing when their tone violates a subjective boundary. I've never personally had that worry (Rocketscientist and I have had some big disagreements in the Controversy section, and she's never even hinted at modding me for my opinions), but some new folks who've joined during the hiatus have expressed that concern. Whether that concern is founded or not, it can be addressed easily and unequivocally by providing an unmodded thread.

Just my thoughts...I wouldn't be responsible for any part of adding or maintaining such a thread, so take them for what they're worth.

[Aliroz The Confused]

IT could be his brother. I mean, not everyone has loads of computers; and, even then, a single IP address doesn't mean only one user or person.

And several computers can use the same router, especially in a place like a computer lab.

[LAYF]

True, and the subject is in the hands of the administrators.
But this is still off topic.

[steinrokkan]

► Show Spoiler

I've had to register an account to make a comment on the level of discourse present in these forums. It's quite frankly abhorrent. The fact that the defenders of Mr. Hunt cling to such inconsequential arguments as "He's a businessman, he doesn't have to have a good relationship with his audiences if he doesn't want to!" is quite telling.

The issue with this line of argument is that when it comes to art and communication the usual standards of commerce - no matter how crudely interpreted they may be in this forum - don't apply. Art isn't a common craft. The fact of the matter is that Mr. Hunt makes his living off of his intersubjective relationship with his fans, expects them to spend a non-zero time browsing his site, and non-directly pleads with them to remain invested (in terms of time and psych├®) by posting promises of updates. His entire mode of operation is based on multilateral exchange between him, the creator, and the audience. He isn't a plumber or a mason whose job only consists of performing a job - as an artist he necessarily has to engage in a dialogue, in flow of information. No artist worthy of the name can avoid that.

Then he proceeds to break all his commitments in this relationship. He is outright abusive in this respect, his readers continue contributing to his efforts, both monetarily through their readership and emotionally / personally through their concerns, yet Mr. Hunt continues his arrogant, dismissive and despicable silence.

Now, I know there's a possibility a mental disease could have prevented him from engaging with his fans. I know because I've been diagnosed with anxiety disorders myself, and have spent some time under medication just to live a semblance of a normal life. And having gone through that I can say: It Thunt is indeed as disturbed as to suffer from this level of anxiety, he should delegate all functions on his wife and have himself committed to an institution. Because an adult who can't come up with a short apology despite weeks of work is too broken to exist without constant medical / psychiatric care.

In short, either Thunt is extremely disrespectful towards the level of relationship and trust he claims to have with his readers, and is merely a shill rather than an artist, or he is basically a threat to himself and his surroundings that must be reformed with the help of trained professionals, not with carebear attitudes of his forumgoers.

It is not acceptable to directly insult other forum members, including the comic's author. -RS

[Aliroz The Confused]

Then he proceeds to break all his commitments in this relationship. He is outright abusive in this respect, his readers continue contributing to his efforts, both monetarily through their readership and emotionally / personally through their concerns, yet Mr. Hunt continues his arrogant, dismissive and despicable silence.

While I do find the broken promises annoying (I don't mind the wait at all. IF he was to say, "June 2016 will have the next page of Goblins", I'd be completely alright with that so long as June 2016 really did have the next page; but him saying "tomorrow" and then taking a few days is rather annoying. I would like it if he said something like "I will explain in less than twenty days" instead of "tomorrow". Mister Hunt can set his own deadlines, perhaps, but I really would like him to set deadlines he can meet, or to meet the deadlines he sets.), I don't know enough about what the heck is going on to comment. I do, in fact, think that some sort of explanation is in order, given that mister Hunt has promised one in his own words. (He said, "A blog explaining what's happened with me will be posted" "This blog is kinda terrifying to write." "The blog is still coming" "the blog I'll be posting. Which'll hopefully help explain what happened.".)

In the end, I don't know enough about what's going on to comment; and I'm hoping that mister Hunt can give a satisfactory explanation. The longer the wait, the better an explanation I would like to have, though. I won't be checking daily for any updates, though. Or weekly.

For me, it's not when, but what.

I have nothign more to say on this subject until he explains. I hope his explanation is satisfactory.

[dire18]

Perhaps the promises of an upcoming blog were just a means to generate a little site traffic I'm baffled by this whole affair at this point. I find the radio silence very weird if it's not a legal issue, which I really doubt it is, considering all the other personal business that's historically been aired out on the Goblins blog. Like, uncomfortably personal business. I don't even really care about the comic any longer at this point, but man, my curiosity about this whole thing has me hooked.