Twitter: [now] new colourist, again.

[smjjames]

I think Thunt did something that he thinks may cause his fans to leave him in droves.

But it's not just family or financial problems. It's something that he thinks could destroy his career.

Ouch, I hope it's not THAT bad. No idea what it could be though. Sure legal issues could cause problems, but there are ways to work around that.

[Talos]

He says he's continuing the comic, so it isn't THAT bad.

[smjjames]

Still bad enough to do self enforced communications blackout.

[RocketScientist]

I don't really see the problem. I agreed with the post till a certain extent, because I think that it stresses THunt out too if he makes a promise he can't keep, but I also feel like there was not much else to say than has been said. It would be better for him to not make a promise besides "I'm working on it", because the failed schedules seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and it would be wiser to just post something like "I'm working on it", what he has been doing after the promise.
Still, the post didn't need a thread all on its own, so I'm not surprised it got locked.

I think it DOES need it's own thread, but the mods are seemingly trying to suppress that point of view without going all the way to deleting and/or censoring posts. I don't like how Thunt has been trolling us (inadvertently or not), by STILL making promises and then not following through on them. I think his problem right now might be that he's trying to spin this in some way to make it not his fault, and not coming up with anything that's going to be believable when he does post it. Sure, his diehard fans won't care (in my opinion), but it's not THEM he's wanting to win over, it's everyone else.

I've tried to keep this civil, so if one is tempted to flame me for this post, please reconsider. I *will* report anyone who does. If you disagree, please keep it civil.

Attacking me for "suppressing" your point of view and calling the author a troll while threatening to report anyone who disagrees with you in a way you don't find civil enough doesn't strike you as remotely ironic?

[Archerd]

Attacking me for "suppressing" your point of view and calling the author a troll while threatening to report anyone who disagrees with you in a way you don't find civil enough doesn't strike you as remotely ironic?

I'm not sure why you're taking it as an attack.

[Ethereal]

I don't really see the problem. I agreed with the post till a certain extent, because I think that it stresses THunt out too if he makes a promise he can't keep, but I also feel like there was not much else to say than has been said. It would be better for him to not make a promise besides "I'm working on it", because the failed schedules seem to rub a lot of people the wrong way, and it would be wiser to just post something like "I'm working on it", what he has been doing after the promise.
Still, the post didn't need a thread all on its own, so I'm not surprised it got locked.

I think it DOES need it's own thread, but the mods are seemingly trying to suppress that point of view without going all the way to deleting and/or censoring posts. I don't like how Thunt has been trolling us (inadvertently or not), by STILL making promises and then not following through on them. I think his problem right now might be that he's trying to spin this in some way to make it not his fault, and not coming up with anything that's going to be believable when he does post it. Sure, his diehard fans won't care (in my opinion), but it's not THEM he's wanting to win over, it's everyone else.

I've tried to keep this civil, so if one is tempted to flame me for this post, please reconsider. I *will* report anyone who does. If you disagree, please keep it civil.

Attacking me for "suppressing" your point of view and calling the author a troll while threatening to report anyone who disagrees with you in a way you don't find civil enough doesn't strike you as remotely ironic?

The author IS trolling (in my opinion). Whether he means to or not, cannot be determined by me at this time. Can you not see that posting promises of updates, of information, and then repeatedly not actually doing it is trolling when taken to the point we're at?

I didn't attack you. I said you seemingly suppress this point of view. Did you not lock a thread like this? It's not an attack if it's TRUE.

I didn't threaten to report anyone that disagrees with me. I threatened to report anyone that flamed me. We're supposed to stay civil, correct? Why not assume that I am reasonable in such a thing until you see otherwise? I haven't attacked any fellow posters yet, so give me the benefit of the doubt please.

[Liesmith]

My opinion is that authors don't owe their fans an explanation for taking a break, so Tarol doesn't owe us an explanation for the hiatus (though of course I'm curious). At the same time, if there were a delay to GAR, he (or Evertide) *would* owe the backers an explanation, as they gave an agreed upon amount of money for an agreed-upon product; in contrast to the comic's business situation, wherein Tarol receives money from ad revenue and donations, but no one actually gets billed for reading the comic.

All of that said, the way the hiatus has been handled is probably one of the worse ways to go about it. Danielle's Facebook post was great: she said that no one was dead, and expressed amusement at the forum theories, which conveys that at least she is in mildly good spirits and able to joke a bit. If it had been left at that, I don't think we'd see the same level of frustration here, but we keep being told that an explanation will be forthcoming "tomorrow", "very soon", "tomorrow", "before I sleep".

To me, this is different than missing a deadline on an update. I'm one of the first to jump to his defense when someone complains about a missed comic deadline, because I know that shit happens. The pages will take time to create, and he works long hours to get them out as quickly as possible, and no amount of whining from the fanbase will allow him to suddenly become The Flash. When he pushes his deadline back, he just spends more time being fastidious with the details, and the page winds up late regardless. I think this is perfectly understandable and it doesn't bug me in the slightest.

Conversely, the explanatory blog delay isn't a matter of working constantly on a task as quickly as possible, yet being unable to complete it; it's trying to overcome an emotional hurdle to complete a task, while telling everyone that it will be completed...then failing to leap the hurdle and repeating the process several times. I'm not saying he should "get over it", both because I don't know what "it" is, and because I don't think anyone has the right to dictate another person's emotions. So, what's my solution if I think Tarol is handling the situation poorly, yet I empathize with not being able to overcome the emotional obstacle? Just write a post saying "I have decided not to talk about the reasons for the hiatus at this time. I am going to resume working on Goblins, and I might discuss the cause of the delay in the future, but I'm not making any promises," and don't tell us when the next update will be until it's already finished.

People will still complain, because people would complain if he went door-to-door offering a heartfelt apology, a handshake, and a hundred dollars...but it would help defuse the situation. It would alleviate some pressure he might feel to stay up late writing something that he'll be ultimately unsatisfied with, and the stress that comes from missing a self-imposed deadline. My disagreement with the handling of the hiatus isn't going to make me ragequit the comic, or the forums, or make me change my behavior in any way...but I do understand how many of the frustrated people in the forums feel.

[Guus]

Just as a side note: you can't "troll by accident". Trolling is annoying people on purpose in the hope of angering them into a response, not doing something you don't like.

With the risk of offending someone: I also find this attack on the mods rather childish. If the mods are really as bad as some of you seem to think this thread would've been locked and the guys openly complaining would've been banned. Instead they choose to take the time to explain their decisions. I normally like a bit of "anarchy" on a forum, but it needs to be reasonable and I feel like some of you are just mad because you don't get your way and lash out on the mods for doing their job. Like lashing out at a policeman for giving you a ticket while you were the one that was speeding. It's inconsiderate, egotistical and insulting.

[AntMac]

Just as a side note: you can't "troll by accident". Trolling is annoying people on purpose in the hope of angering them into a response, not doing something you don't like.

With the risk of offending someone: I also find this attack on the mods rather childish. If the mods are really as bad as some of you seem to think this thread would've been locked and the guys openly complaining would've been banned. Instead they choose to take the time to explain their decisions. I normally like a bit of "anarchy" on a forum, but it needs to be reasonable and I feel like some of you are just mad because you don't get your way and lash out on the mods for doing their job. Like lashing out at a policeman for giving you a ticket while you were the one that was speeding. It's inconsiderate, egotistical and insulting.

I absolutely agree with you about our needing to be reasonable, and mods being necessary.

Re your explaining to them why their use of the term troll there is wrong, some people use the meme-ish words like "troll" or whatever, because they are not mature or skilled enough in formulating and communicating their ideas, to explicate their point accurately. Others, just because they are lazy.

[Lurks_In_Shadows]

Apparently, it is fairly common for the readers to develop a sense of ownership of a strip that they like. I've seen more than one cartoonist on the web complain about this. Regardless, Goblins is Thunt's creation and his story. He can finish it how and WHEN he likes. We're just along for the ride. I've seen many cartoonists that update less frequently and less predictably than what he does. I just wait for them to get around to it and enjoy their work when they do. Sometimes, things just can't be rushed. As to his reason for the hiatus, he does NOT owe an explanation unless he just wants to. I can definately appreciate trying to keep a divide between his professional life and his private life.

[Brightnotshiny]

The stars look pretty stunning tonight.


Edit: Heh. Foreplay.

[Hellborn_Blight]

Every time I see someone say, "Thunt does NOT owe us anything", I think, yeah that's true. But immediately after that i think, "He owes himself." The reason i think this is because he has built up a dialogue between himself and is readership. He built this relationship carefully, and earnestly. It is so uncharacteristic of him to tell us nothing. It' like the magic of our weird internet courtship...thing has poofed out. We all know that updates are consistently inconsistent. It's been as much of a part of goblins as being meta is. But this for me and many others has never been about the updates. It been about taking for granted that the lines of dialogue between fan and creator were always good and, if often one directional, intimate. So like an ignored significant other, a lot of us feel burned. It's a lot more personal than "Where's the next F'ing comic?! What's the deal?! Ima madzor!"

Nothing good comes from tight lipping like a snapping turtle when trouble arises. Worse things come of not keeping your word and still not talking which is unfortunatly where we have arrived to. And I'm afraid that the amazing relationship he so steadily built up will suffer irreparable damage, which would be an awful shame. That is really my greatest worry, that we won't be important as a community anymore because of resentment. Those are my feelings on why he owe's it to himself to finally come forward. He should summon the necessary courage to fight for this thing he built up.

As for what happened and it being hard to post about, my theory was kinda a bad one. It goes along with the idea some people had here that he did something he thought we'd hate him for. My conclusion had to with the breasts tweet being close to the last thing he posted and a, lets call it a marital indiscretion. That, or they went to like Amsterdam, hit the red light district and things got a little crazy/no longer legal. I feel like a really dark person for coming to that theoretical conclusion...

[WearsHats]

Every time I see someone say, "Thunt does NOT owe us anything", I think, yeah that's true. But immediately after that i think, "He owes himself." The reason i think this is because he has built up a dialogue between himself and is readership. He built this relationship carefully, and earnestly. It is so uncharacteristic of him to tell us nothing. It' like the magic of our weird internet courtship...thing has poofed out. We all know that updates are consistently inconsistent. It's been as much of a part of goblins as being meta is. But this for me and many others has never been about the updates. It been about taking for granted that the lines of dialogue between fan and creator were always good and, if often one directional, intimate. So like an ignored significant other, a lot of us feel burned. It's a lot more personal than "Where's the next F'ing comic?! What's the deal?! Ima madzor!"

Maybe it's just me, but the end of this paragraph makes me really uncomfortable.

Nothing good comes from tight lipping like a snapping turtle when trouble arises. Worse things come of not keeping your word and still not talking which is unfortunatly where we have arrived to. And I'm afraid that the amazing relationship he so steadily built up will suffer irreparable damage, which would be an awful shame. That is really my greatest worry, that we won't be important as a community anymore because of resentment. Those are my feelings on why he owe's it to himself to finally come forward. He should summon the necessary courage to fight for this thing he built up.

In some situations, going quiet is the best choice. You don't know what the situation is.

And he is working on telling us. He wants to. He's trying. It's hard. Cut him some slack.

As for what happened and it being hard to post about, my theory was kinda a bad one. It goes along with the idea some people had here that he did something he thought we'd hate him for. My conclusion had to with the breasts tweet being close to the last thing he posted and a, lets call it a marital indiscretion. That, or they went to like Amsterdam, hit the red light district and things got a little crazy/no longer legal. I feel like a really dark person for coming to that theoretical conclusion...

That's just out of left field and completely inappropriate. (It also makes no sense in the context of what he has told us.

He'll tell us what happened. He's working on it. Be patient. And try to refrain from wild and inappropriate guesses.

[Krulle]

Did anyone else notice that during Thunt's tweeting absence @Thunt_Goblins the number of his followers increased?
A month ago it was about 9k5 if I remember correctly. Now it's >9k8...

[chartinboy]

I don't like how Thunt has been trolling us

People are accusing Thunt of trolling us now?

Nope nope nope. So tempting to say something very rude. Rude enough that mods from other forums will be attracted to the monumental stack of vitriol that would be the response I want to make to this.

Ok, in all seriousness - no. To troll someone implies intent to frustrate, upset or otherwise inconvenience. I'm sad that I'm not getting my Goblins fix, but I'm not upset with Thunt, nor is he trying to upset people. He is going through something clearly very serious and life affecting - imagine you're in some awful position or situation, and other people are waiting for you to give them something for free. Is it really ok that some of them accuse you of trolling for consistently trying to communicate with them while also trying to put most of your attention where it should be - on the situation seriously affecting you.

In other terms; Thunt is going through something serious. We are missing an (awesome) online webcomic. Who's in the worse situation there?

Cut the guy some slack, eh?

[Wolfie]

Everyone,

I realize that this situation is probably more frustrating than the wait to hear from Tarol was. I also realize the need to vent your frustrations here, among others who may share your opinion. The Mods do appreciate the situation and are trying to be fair with everyone. We aren't trying to censor anyone. However, a little respect goes a long way. Tarol does read the forums and eventually he will read these posts. He already beats himself up for disappointing people, especially his readers and fans. He does try to be as open as possible, and so this silence is out of the norm, which tells me that it is something really big that he's dealing with. If we do truly appreciate him and his talents, then we need to give him the space he needs until he can return to what he does and feels like sharing what happened. He will do this in his own time and we shouldn't judge him for taking his time on it.

Please, everyone, we would appreciate it if you continue to remain respectful and keep civil fingers when you're typing your posts.

We haven't banned anyone, handed out official warnings, or locked this thread because we understand. Truly we do. We do request that everyone plays well with others.

Thank you,

Wolfie

[ardenwolf]

I keep hearing people say Thunt owes his readers nothing.

I don't mean to be a dick, but last I checked, he was doing this as his full time job and was dependent on his readers donations as well as advertising to make a living. If I also remember right, his house, you know, the one he's living in, was paid for in large part by his fan base. This makes this FAR from a normal webcomic situation. Yes, yes he does owe his reader base an explanation, and yes he does need to stop throwing us false promises. This is his job, he has a HOME, a roof over his head thanks to the readers of this comic. Him and Daniel owe, I repeat, owe the reader base their very standard of living. So no, I personally do not want to hear that he owes his reader base nothing again. It's a ludicrous statement. Unless donations have stopped, and no one is visiting his page causing him to no longer get revenue from advertisements, then yes, he very much is responsible for doing his job, yes his job, technically in his situation, doing the comic as full time and depending on donations and add revenue, that makes his reader base his bosses in an abstract way.

That all being said, shit happens, I know this, you know this, we all know this. When it does happen, we need to accept it and deal with it. Whatever it is, could be the best excuse ever, and something we all will understand when we finally learn of it.

It, however, does not change the very true fact that he does owe his reader base a great, great deal. So yes whatever is going on is understandable, yes we will have to deal, ultimately we will likely forgive what has occurred. Doing so makes us good understanding people. I for one hope everything works out and can't wait to see more of the comic to come. This is my favorite webcomic. But, saying he owes his reader base nothing, especially in his circumstances is wrong and spits in the face of any and every contribution anyone's made, the house he lives in, and the money he gets from advertisements thanks to his loyal readership that checks his webpage every single day.

I felt I needed to post, because I personally am sick of seeing it.

The only way he owes the reader base nothing is if he shuts off advertisements and stops accepting donations. Until then, drop the tired, he owes his reader base nothing BS. Essentially quit the job he's being paid for.

Sorry to anyone who thinks this was a bit harsh, I did not mean it to be. Just felt the need to state the facts as I see them, since every time I see that, he owes his reader base nothing comment it causes me to twitch each time.

[ctoldcorps]

If you've ever been in the military this is the point after the alert has been sounded and you've been dragged out of your bunk to grab your sh*t where the Plt. Sgt is walking down the formation while you sit on your pack on the runway at 0 dark 30 telling you to 'Standby to standby.'

Whatever is coming will come. Just not on your preferred timeline.

[nikohl]

Ardenwolf...Lots of webcomic authors owe their houses to their readers. Cos y'know, ad revenue and merch sales pay their bills. Don't trot that old argument out again like it matters. We donated (DONATED) to help him because we wanted to. We didn't buy his time, his services or him as our personal drawing slave. Anyone who PURCHASED something received it. Anyone who donated did so knowing they were not guaranteed anything beyond a thank you.

(Kickstarter backers aren't included here, as that's WIP and in the hands of Evertide.)

[smjjames]

If you've ever been in the military this is the point after the alert has been sounded and you've been dragged out of your bunk to grab your sh*t where the Plt. Sgt is walking down the formation while you sit on your pack on the runway at 0 dark 30 telling you to 'Standby to standby.'

Whatever is coming will come. Just not on your preferred timeline.

You make it sound like that's what happened to you at one point.

[lingrem]

I'm just going to follow up Wolfie's post with a personal story of my own. (I am going to guess that I'm going to get ninja'd while writing this!)

I don't have a clue what Thunt is dealing with. So bear that in mind with the topic of my own post.

It can be really, really hard to explain things to someone. It can in fact be terrifying. Especially when it's personal and something that you're maybe feeling ashamed of, or guilty about.

I'm sure that a lot of you can relate to situations like that.

So, with my story: when I was 15 I OD'd on tyelonol. The smell of chlorine made me feel really nauseaus, so I ended up telling someone when they asked what was wrong. And then ended up in the ER.

I was on a school trip, so my entire class ended up knowing. I had to face it when I returned to school a few days later. I didn't know what to say to my friends, or what to expect, because I hadn't wanted anyone to know - I had been testing my body's limits and not actively trying to kill myself. It was a practice run. I was so terrified and scared of people's reactions that I withdrew as much as I could to avoid it. Which did not help the situation, but it was the best I could do. A few people were understanding, but most people? Most people were mad at me.

They were mad at me, because I was so extremely unhappy that I did the only thing I could think of to end it. Did that make things better for me? No. It made things worse. The people I had been trying to learn to trust mostly bailed on me.

I never, not once, actually talked to someone about how I was feeling before the OD or after. No one asked, either. When they were already mad at me, it made me way too scared to try to confide in them.

Have I OD'd since then? Yes. Never as a suicide attempt, but as a way to just cope and focus on something other than my emotions. Most of those attempts I don't tell people about. A few of them I've tried to. There are always questions about why, but there's never been a question of "How are you feeling?". I don't even expect it anymore, and the few times I've told people it was because I wouldn't be making much sense when I was talking. Or, if I told someone I know that I would immediately stop taking anymore.

I'm turning 30 in a few months. So this has been going on for half of my life now. I have things much more under control, but I don't keep pills in my home if I can avoid them. It's a natural response for me and something I've been working on for 15 years. But I know my body's limits and tolerance level of different kinds of pills.

Even right now - writing this all down at once? It's terrifying. It's difficult to do, even though many of members here who frequently Hidden know about some of my issues. And I've left a lot out and am telling a bare-bones story.

Thunt, on the other hand, is most likely trying to tell us everything. And he's trying to explain it to a massive audience, whatever it is. Terror and shame can really, really hold you back no matter what you try to do to overcome them.

And really, each time there is a disrespectful and blaming post? Would just make that harder for him. Being upset is natural and understandable, but when the tone isn't respectful it can have huge consequences on someone.

Anyway. I hope this can help a bit for at least some of you.

(And I was right - ninja'd by multiple posts, haha)

[ctoldcorps]

If you've ever been in the military this is the point after the alert has been sounded and you've been dragged out of your bunk to grab your sh*t where the Plt. Sgt is walking down the formation while you sit on your pack on the runway at 0 dark 30 telling you to 'Standby to standby.'

Whatever is coming will come. Just not on your preferred timeline.

You make it sound like that's what happened to you at one point.

lol many times. Part of the fun of being in the Corps. You get quite Zen about it after a while.

[BopEuph]

So no, I personally do not want to hear that he owes his reader base nothing again.

Thunt really does owe any of us nothing.

[ardenwolf]

Guaranteed, no, owed yes. There's a fundamental ethical difference here. He ethically owes everyone for every donation, every cent. He is not legally required, because they are donations, but ethically yes, yes he does, as does every webcomic author in the same situation, or in any other field really. Ethically HE DOES OWE his reader base.

Learn the language you are speaking. Saying he owes his reader base is proper use of language and the word's meaning given the situation. I'm tired of seeing everyone's throat being jumped down, when they get upset when ethical demands are not being met. The only way a balance of altruistic exchange occurs is if both sides do their part to do best by each side, when one takes more than they receive, or do not do everything in their power to do what's right by the other side then they are abusing the good being done for them. This is unethical. It is not required, or needed to do anything for anyone else who does something for you, or helps you of their own accord. Ethically however, if you want to be able to call yourself a good and decent person, then yes you do owe them for what they did. Just because some might be happy with just a "thank you" does not mean, just a thank you, is all that is ethically owed. And yes I said some, speak ever for yourself and not others. Some donate because they want to help him out so he can continue to contribute quality comics, not just because they think he's a swell guy. There is an implied exchange there.

Also if you had all donated for the house, and then immediately after getting it he said, "Thank you everyone for the house I really do and sincerely appreciate it. I've decided, however, that I think Goblin's has had a good run now and will be ending the comic immediately." you would all be bold faced liars if you honestly want me to believe you'd all just shrug and be good with that.

The difference is, everyone draws their own line of when they feel taken advantage of or under-appreciated. While no one, reasonable anyway, would argue he's owes his readership better than to take his house then immediately run with it, what's going on here, is people having different opinions on when he owes his readership better.

Everyone is allowed to set their own bar for when they feel they are being ethically ripped off and not given what is ethically owed.

So stop deciding for others, when they have to or can draw that line, and accept that ethically he owes to his reader base, and on an individual level, we are all allowed to decide when we feel we are not getting what's owed.

I personally am fine and accepting of the situation, I am not fine with people telling others when they can and cannot feel they are not being paid their ethical due.

Thunt does ethically owe his reader base, this is a fact. How much he owes or does not owe, is up to individual interpretation. But that he does owe, is fact. So everyone get off your high horses and accept that people have the right to their feelings. You may not think Thunt owes you a thing, ethically or otherwise, but that gives you no right to tell others they cannot feel otherwise or are wrong for doing so. Stop drawing imaginary lines and treating them as fact with anyone not on your side as wrong.

Some feel Thunt owes them, ethically this is true, to what extent is decided on an individual bases, accept it, deal with it, move on, and stop telling others how they can and cannot feel.

[Krulle]

Indeed, if he stops updating and drawing,... well.
That's his problem, as he will need to do his own career change and start anew.
He does not owe me anything. I had a prima facie look at the ads his site showed, and when they sounded interesting enough (like the t-shirt company), I clicked them and had a look around.
But that was done for the work already delivered, and certainly not for any potential updates to come.

He has high expectations of his own art quality, in my opinion too high.
A few more asked for a tad less detail and less effort in shading. But any new tool he worked with, to improve his situation, actually ended in allowing him to draw even more details (yes, when drawing on computers, you can zoom in near indefinitely, and therefore start drawing veins on the leaves of every tree in the background image of a forest, but does it improve how we readers perceive the update, where the lines of the single leaves will be blurred into the image of a tree?).

The self-expectation THunt has, seems to be manifested in the image he tweeted, at least to me.
And then working so public? And getting criticism from all sides? If you're a perfectionist, this can only lead to a sincere burn-out.
I hope it's only been a warning shot, but I'm afraid it's not.
And there is not much I can do to help him.

Edit: ninja'ed