Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby WearsHats » Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:51 am

I don't think those are fair conclusions to draw. You're assuming that every prophecy is the same, that Fumbles getting hit with every prophecy ever in one overwhelming rush is the same as Y&B doing a careful ceremony to see one specific thing after years of training and experience, and that the future is always mutable.

I can't see Fumbles withholding information just to be a jerk. I think either he honestly can't give it (because the magic prevents him or because he doesn't have the necessary details) or he knows that giving it would only make things harder.

In Chief's case, what Y&B saw is that Chief would be a terrible Chief, but that the consequences of him not being chief would be worse. So she was able to steer that. To choose from possible paths.

On the other hand, Saves A Fox fulfilled her prophecy by trying to escape it. Some prophecies are inevitable. Which is underlined by us getting the serpent/prey prophecy from more than one source. That's obviously a key moment and not a path that can be chosen.

Likewise, a teller can try to see certain things, but doesn't have control over the visions. They can only ask/try and make the best of what the god's magic chooses to share. I think what the analogy is trying to convey is that pushing to see more is painful and not always possible. It also depends on the power of the teller.

So... You get what you get. And it's never the whole picture. It's glimpses and moments and feelings.

Maybe it's like a dream. Mashed up images and thoughts flowing past you, with details you can't always remember. Sometimes you can remember. Other dreams you can't. Sometimes they're clear, sometimes not. Sometimes you can consciously nudge them, sometimes you can't.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby ForgetsKeys » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:14 am

I think that the analogy works well for a simple explanation. All analogies break down when you analyze it too far. Personally, I'm a fan of the theory that Fumbles knows more but isn't saying it. The talking wall in Brassmoon was also hesitant to give more details about the prophecy. Perhaps knowing what will happen will make it worse for Minmax, especially the whole "friends will become enemies" part.

Or maybe like WearsHats said, Fumbles only knows that whatever happens will cause Minmax a lot of pain.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Krulle » Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:16 am

Morgaln wrote: Instead, he's clearly saying that the reason he's not telling Minmax what will happen is because it would hurt Fumbles to do so.

He doesn't say it would hurt himself or anyone specific. Just that it would hurt. Someone or somegroup.
Do you know the Oedipus prophecy?

Who knows what would've happened if the oracle knew and told the specifics? He would've tried to prevent the outcome by changing things. But these changes may hurt others, while fate makes the prophecy still happen, and thereby hurting others too...

The prophcies may already refer to the best possible outcome. In whose view needs to be discussed.
It may be good for the whole realm. It may only be positivefor the Goblin clan at the expense of others...
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Morgaln » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:04 pm

The main argument I see is "telling might make it worse than not telling." The key word here is "might." We don't know if it would make things worse.

Now there are two possible options:
1. Fumbles knows if he shares what he knows about the prophecy, things will turn out worse than if he keeps silent. If that is the case, why does he not say so? "I will make it worse (for you) if I tell you" is a far stronger argument than "telling will hurt for a few minutes." Why go for a weaker argument if he has a much more convincing one available? For that reason, I don't believe this is the case.

2. Fumbles doesn't know if sharing will make what will come worse. That means, he might make it worse. But on the reverse, he might also make things better. There is a chance Minmax will be able to avoid that fate. That chance should be worth the risk, especially to someone as upbeat and positive as Fumbles is. A fatalistic approach is very out of character for him. To make matters worse (hah!), if he doesn't tell Minmax and whatever that fate is comes to pass, it's to be expected that Minmax will blame Fumbles for not telling him. Whatever happens, Minmax will most likely believe that had he known, he could have changed that fate (whether or not that's true is irrelevant in that case, because it's only Minmax' perception that matters here). This could easily destroy the friendship between those two.

As for Saves-A-Fox and Oedipus, both of these are classic examples of self-fulfilling prophecies. In both cases, had they not been told about the prophecy at all, they wouldn't have happened. But, and here's the point why these cases actually support my case: the reason the prophecies went down as prophesied was because no one filled in the details.
Saves-A-Fox was only told that she would save a fox. Had someone told her "you will save a fox from excrutiating pain by killing it," she would not have killed (and thus not have saved) the fox.
If someone had told Laios that his son would kill his father and marry his mother because he would grow up not knowing his heritage, he would have made sure that Oedipus would grow up in his household, knowing exactly who he is. Then again, Oedipus is a bad example anyway, because what happened wasn't just a prophecy. It was a curse put upon Laios, which means in Greek mythology there are divine beings that would make sure the curse would happen one way or another.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Arrow » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:34 pm

My take on the "Fumbles not sharing the explanation" is different -

Fumbles says (A) Explaining a prophecy hurts, like looking at the sun and (B) the sun is the future, the prophecies are the sunlight around it.

I think the important part is (B), which explains why explaining a prophecy is impossible.
I understood it as Fumbles never did really see the future. It hurt too much to look at the future, so what he did see is only the prophecy, and that is all he knows.
I *guess* that Fumble got the words of the prophecy, but also a bit extra information, maybe feelings and emotions, maybe fuzzy images or sounds. So I'm guessing he knows a bit more than the text that was spoken, but not enough to explain exactly what the prophecy means.
To really explain it, he would have to "look into the future" which is impossible ie. like looking into the sun.

-

My take on prophecies and free will / mutable future -
Generally I love free will and would hate to accept that there is none (sadly as neuroscience advances the free will appears to be an illusion... but I diverge)
but allowing prophecies and free will isn't hard - and the more prophecies are vague and fuzzy the easier it is.
All it takes is that at some point in the future, you will take a look back and say "oh, yea, I get the prophecy now, it totally happened". Basically getting a prophecy will limit your possible futures, but in the same way as going east and not west limits your possible future.

Now, if the prophecy says something super explicit like "on December 29th exactly 9am you will do XYZ" then that doesn't leave much for free will and that is not a world I would like to be in, but luckily it seems the Goblins world prophecies leave free will intact.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby BuildsLegos » Wed Nov 22, 2017 7:38 pm

Morgaln wrote:Whatever happens, Minmax will most likely believe that had he known, he could have changed that fate (whether or not that's true is irrelevant in that case, because it's only Minmax' perception that matters here). This could easily destroy the friendship between those two.
Yeah well, that's apart of the prophesy anyway. :P In fact, I doubt a knucklehead like Minmax would find any reason to not blame those in-the-know no matter what the situation.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Krulle » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:31 am

This discussion about how this analogy is crap also supports the character traits in-comic.
Minmax hears the analogy, and finds it great. Because he is unable to think it through.
And therefore can't understand the analogy, and therefore simply finds it great, to avoid having discussions with his friend.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Hjerne » Thu Nov 23, 2017 11:27 am

You can't see the sun, just the sunlight. They don't see the actual event, just the results.

So maybe he just saw Minmax broken down and sobbing "I killed him." or such. No idea what the event was. No idea who he killed. Just that Minmax was going to be torn apart by it.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Shardstorm » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:18 pm

Also haven't considered one possible aspect to Fumbles not wanting to tell him. Events are already in motion, and it can't be stopped. The pain that would come from explaining it would be Minmax working to avoid something that at this point he can't.

I also don't think you can draw the parallels between Y&B telling Chief and Thaco about the two of them, or the naming ceremonies. I think it's fair to assume the bigger the event, the more painful it would to explore and reveal. Naming is nothing, Chief and Thaco is big for the Goblins, but not for anyone else. It seems Minmax's stuff is tied up with the possible end of the realm. Bigger stakes, more people involved, and I'd assume like the Teller Ceremony, the bigger it is, the more painful it is. Basically more to take in and more to try and understand makes it more painful. It's deliberately vague though, and we could argue around it for ages, but I'm happy with that explanation.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Chaomancer » Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:26 pm

I'm just going to toss this out here for people looking at the "broken tribe" prophecy as evidence here: we may not be able to treat that whole incident as reliable. There are, as noted, several traditionally named goblins whose names are names of prophecy... and Chief was named in that style, but is not one of them. Explicitly not. She didn't name him "Chief" because she saw him as chief, but because she wanted his name to enforce him being chief, because of what she saw about the tribal civil war. That is, while "Dies Horribly" is descriptive (this happens, so his name is this), "Chief" is prescriptive (his name is this, so this will happen.)

And this might possibly matter due to Fumble's little seer-storm. "She saw but misunderstood. The name is not right." I've seen a lot of forum debate (I lurk periodically) about whose name might not be "right", and there's a lot of valid thoughts on it. But it seems to me that Chief is as good a candidate as any other, since we know he received his name in defiance of prophecy, not accordance to it. The name is not right... so perhaps the prophecy that drove her to it is the one that she saw but misunderstood. The goblin civil war might not be exactly what she thought it was.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Dustin_S » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:15 am

Maybe I missed it in all the back and forth about Fumble's one panel of dialogue (which i for the record am willing to accept, flawed or not) but really...

Is no one questioning that none of the other characters are questioning what the hell just happened? Fumbles managed to survive *fifteen* imprints. Did his plan to "cut them loose" work? Did he absorb them? did he absorb part but willingly reject the others? Did the other characters see what happened? if so, do the other characters *know* what happened? Sure, Minmax might not care how his buddy survived such a death trap, but certainly Big Ears or Thaco (both of whom rely rather heavily on Wisdom) should be doing a little more than blindly thanking their good luck and celebrating the not-prophecy they're going to save the realm.

I'm sure Thunt is going to reveal the details to us in time, but I think it's out of character for his usually very insightful writing to have so many characters behaving in such a...disinterested...way.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Glemp » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:21 pm

I don't know, I got it okay. Fumbles can see things around the event, like how hurt MM is going to be by it, and that it happens when serpents becoming prey and all that, but not what the event actually is or how it happened.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby RocketScientist » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:02 pm

Arrow wrote:Now, if the prophecy says something super explicit like "on December 29th exactly 9am you will do XYZ" then that doesn't leave much for free will and that is not a world I would like to be in, but luckily it seems the Goblins world prophecies leave free will intact.


That is kind of what happened with Fox's clan, though. Everybody gathered around to watch her save the fox, and then she killed it.

Dustin_S wrote:Maybe I missed it in all the back and forth about Fumble's one panel of dialogue (which i for the record am willing to accept, flawed or not) but really...

Is no one questioning that none of the other characters are questioning what the hell just happened? Fumbles managed to survive *fifteen* imprints. Did his plan to "cut them loose" work? Did he absorb them? did he absorb part but willingly reject the others? Did the other characters see what happened? if so, do the other characters *know* what happened? Sure, Minmax might not care how his buddy survived such a death trap, but certainly Big Ears or Thaco (both of whom rely rather heavily on Wisdom) should be doing a little more than blindly thanking their good luck and celebrating the not-prophecy they're going to save the realm.

I'm sure Thunt is going to reveal the details to us in time, but I think it's out of character for his usually very insightful writing to have so many characters behaving in such a...disinterested...way.


I'm hoping he's planning on giving us some insight into what happened, because it does seem like we just sort of dropped it.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby BuildsLegos » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:13 pm

Dustin_S wrote:I'm sure Thunt is going to reveal the details to us in time, but I think it's out of character for his usually very insightful writing to have so many characters behaving in such a...disinterested...way.
They're not acting disinterested, just thinking in the short-term out of desperation. The alternative is nicely represented by a moment in Monk when the title character is escaping a burning building and takes the time to adjust a stack of boxes on his way out. Reasonable people might see fit to do that, when fire or a genocidal maniac aren't hot on their heels.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby WearsHats » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:20 pm

BTW, early version of Monday's page just went up for patrons, and it's major.
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Re: Nov 19, 2017 - Like Looking At The Sun

Postby Glemp » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:48 am

WearsHats wrote:BTW, early version of Monday's page just went up for patrons, and it's major.


I know it's bad form to talk about Patreon stuff, so I'll keep it brief. Thank you for notifying me - I stopped checking on Patreon a while ago.
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