Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

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ForgetsOldName
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by ForgetsOldName » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:41 am

Liquidmark wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote:There's some debate about how to interpret Duv's chief loophole. It may be that Dies is in fact now chief and that her intent was to kill him and make a more pliable Cryptic Falls goblin chief instead.

They didn't even start a ritual to make him chief. Besides, the notion that a third party can coronate a chief of a separate sovereign clan is preposterous. They might have been chief in name only
Not so, they painted blood on his hand and it glowed with Mag goo what's approval. Is this an official ritual, or did Thunt make it up?

As for being chief in name only, it's a religious ritual and appears to come with some sort of supernatural power, and if you oppose the chief you may be in trouble somehow.
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GathersIngredients
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by GathersIngredients » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:32 am

Maglubiet.

and here either Duv or her pet teller Riss is saying that the glowing bit is only the first step, and that she will make the person into the chief of their clan. Which Dies refused. Violently (okay, that was a) Junior and b) a bit later. But still).
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Segev » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:21 pm

Yeah, it looks like the glowing bird-blood was not a divination to judge the goblin worthy, but a divination to judge whether the goblin's clan had an opening for chief.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Liquidmark » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 pm

ForgetsOldName wrote:
Liquidmark wrote:
ForgetsOldName wrote:There's some debate about how to interpret Duv's chief loophole. It may be that Dies is in fact now chief and that her intent was to kill him and make a more pliable Cryptic Falls goblin chief instead.

They didn't even start a ritual to make him chief. Besides, the notion that a third party can coronate a chief of a separate sovereign clan is preposterous. They might have been chief in name only
Not so, they painted blood on his hand and it glowed with Mag goo what's approval. Is this an official ritual, or did Thunt make it up?

As for being chief in name only, it's a religious ritual and appears to come with some sort of supernatural power, and if you oppose the chief you may be in trouble somehow.
I believe that the goo was to show who had a chief or not. It wasn't to determine who should be a chief. A simple test like that shouldn't hold sway over whether or not Dies should be chief.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Glemp » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:35 pm

Regarding Duv's authority to make Dies Chief, it's important to note that she's the living symbol of goblinhood. She's not a third party, she has significant leverage over every goblin clan in the realm and if she says Dies is Chief, the GAP would be inclined to listen.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by ForgetsOldName » Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:27 pm

Liquidmark wrote: I believe that the goo was to show who had a chief or not. It wasn't to determine who should be a chief. A simple test like that shouldn't hold sway over whether or not Dies should be chief.
That's definitely what the text implies, but TBH it would make more sense if it had made him a chief. "If your chief is dead, your hand will glow!" Huh? At best it's a test to see if someone is eligible to be a chief, but nothing we've been told makes it sound like certain goblins are ineligible to be chief.
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by jfms » Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:27 pm

Glemp wrote:Regarding Duv's authority to make Dies Chief, it's important to note that she's the living symbol of goblinhood. She's not a third party, she has significant leverage over every goblin clan in the realm and if she says Dies is Chief, the GAP would be inclined to listen.
But don't forget that the GAP considers the Vipers to be a rival clan that they do not wish to met.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Sessine » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:54 am

ForgetsOldName wrote:
Liquidmark wrote: I believe that the goo was to show who had a chief or not. It wasn't to determine who should be a chief. A simple test like that shouldn't hold sway over whether or not Dies should be chief.
That's definitely what the text implies, but TBH it would make more sense if it had made him a chief. "If your chief is dead, your hand will glow!" Huh? At best it's a test to see if someone is eligible to be a chief, but nothing we've been told makes it sound like certain goblins are ineligible to be chief.
On the contrary, it makes perfect sense. We are told explicitly that chieftainship is for life. Goblins from any clan with a living chief are therefore not eligible to be made chief of their clan.

The simple "glow" test would have been developed long ago because goblins traditionally send their fighters out into the world under the command of their clan chief, and it surely has happened from time to time that the entire war party including the chief has been slaughtered by adventurers, leaving no survivors to carry the message back to the clan village. If the war party goes out and is never heard from again, this test is how the village can find out that they need to appoint a new chief.

It's not clear whether tellers always go out with the war party. Young and Beautiful did, though -- so at least sometimes, a village may have to reboot the way the GAP is doing, going through the teller-creation ceremony first. Or, it's possible that tradition also allows a village that is worrying about a long-overdue war party to go to a neighboring village and ask their teller to perform the test.

I'm guessing the social barrier to either of these plans must be pretty high, because it would be really humiliating for a clan to admit, especially to another clan, that they'd lost all hope of their war party returning. (Not to mention, what if the glow test fails, indicating the clan chief is still alive out there? Oops! Oh ye of little faith!) But, eventually, in clans that survive, need would overcome embarrassment.
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Guus » Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:45 am

Heeeeey Sessine, welcome back! Haven't seen you in a while!
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Liquidmark » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:47 pm

ForgetsOldName wrote:
Liquidmark wrote: I believe that the goo was to show who had a chief or not. It wasn't to determine who should be a chief. A simple test like that shouldn't hold sway over whether or not Dies should be chief.
That's definitely what the text implies, but TBH it would make more sense if it had made him a chief. "If your chief is dead, your hand will glow!" Huh? At best it's a test to see if someone is eligible to be a chief, but nothing we've been told makes it sound like certain goblins are ineligible to be chief.
Anybody in a tribe should be eligible to be a chief. However, I don't think that the viper clan should get to arbitrarily make that determination concerning succession in tribes other than their own, no matter what birthright to rule they think they have. There's a reason why tribes have their own tellers and their own chiefs. If the vipers really ruled things, then there wouldn't be a need to enslave a handful of stragglers and travelers to dig a path to the dungeon crawl. They would just snap their fingers and the other clans would send their best to answer the call. They would also know the status of the other clans and personally know the chiefs from those other clans. Those clans would make regular tribute instead of simply avoiding their territory. One would expect that they would also be under viper protection and guidance as thrall clans.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by RocketScientist » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:48 pm

Liquidmark wrote:They didn't even start a ritual to make him chief. Besides, the notion that a third party can coronate a chief of a separate sovereign clan is preposterous. They might have been chief in name only
I've been wondering about this. If any teller can appoint the chief of any clan, then what is to stop one clan from just killing off all the rival chiefs, and installing their own?
Glemp wrote:Regarding Duv's authority to make Dies Chief, it's important to note that she's the living symbol of goblinhood.
According to her.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by GathersIngredients » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:24 pm

RocketScientist wrote:
Liquidmark wrote:They didn't even start a ritual to make him chief. Besides, the notion that a third party can coronate a chief of a separate sovereign clan is preposterous. They might have been chief in name only
I've been wondering about this. If any teller can appoint the chief of any clan, then what is to stop one clan from just killing off all the rival chiefs, and installing their own?
Glemp wrote:Regarding Duv's authority to make Dies Chief, it's important to note that she's the living symbol of goblinhood.
According to her.
What's to stop one clan? Possibly the members of the clans themselves. Or perhaps Maglubiet?

Remember, Duv only THINKS that - as "chosen one" - she/her teller/the viper clan should have the right to appoint the chief of another clan, in these desperate times.
Egocentric dictators have been using such line of reasoning throughout history loads of times. And were successful with it only until some bigger bully (or a group of allied forces) came around to push them of their throne...
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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by thinkslogically » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:29 am

I assumed there had to be some amount of willingness from the Chief-to-be, personally. Like the ritual could only be completed if the new chief willingly accepted the role and authority of the Viper Teller in bestowing the rank on them. Otherwise Dies could just have been forced to be the new chief whether he wanted it or not.

Presumably since it's a divine ritual, if it's good enough for Mags, it's good enough for everyone...

What's vaguely interesting in the setting is that the different clans seem to be completely separate entities both to the goblins and to Maglubiyet (or at least according to the ritual). I wonder who got to decide that?

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by RocketScientist » Sat Apr 22, 2017 11:57 am

GathersIngredients wrote:Remember, Duv only THINKS that - as "chosen one" - she/her teller/the viper clan should have the right to appoint the chief of another clan, in these desperate times.
Egocentric dictators have been using such line of reasoning throughout history loads of times. And were successful with it only until some bigger bully (or a group of allied forces) came around to push them of their throne...
Yeah. I was trying to avoid real world analogies. I like to hope that fantasy/magical worlds have some precautions against the dystopian messes we have in this one.

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Re: Sweet Beetles for Peace 17 April 2017

Post by Segev » Mon Apr 24, 2017 7:54 am

If Duv sends a "new chief" back to a clan that currently lacks one, backed by some of her tribe's warriors and knowledge that more are coming if there's...trouble...it is not improbable to expect that at least some of those goblin tribes would accept the puppet-chief for the same reason that any dispossessed and defenseless people would accept the rule of a stronger force that has offered the most peaceable conquest possible...with threat that it becomes less peaceable but no less conquering should they resist.

She likely doesn't try this on tribes with active chiefs because she can't twist her logic to justify removing those chiefs, and because active leadership makes imposing a puppet harder. Doubtless, she would have found excuses to have any chiefs who continued to be a pain...removed. Possibly totally not by her hands at all, honest.

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