Low Equipment Party

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Talos
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Low Equipment Party

Post by Talos » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:50 pm

Apart from Ears, the GAP has been given some very poor equipment. So poor that when when combines it with other mechanical disadvantages they'd have as goblins, one wonders how they have gotten through anything without sheer luck and a super-benevolent GM on their side. I know that this take is more of a mechanical one than anything based on the plot or setting, but this is taking place in a D&D game. Mechanics do matter at some point. When was the last time anyone played an unarmored, barefoot, shirtless party with no rings, amulets, or other magical aides, armed with mediocre weapons at best... and an OP paladin? It got a little better over time, but not by much. No more loincloths, at least.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by WearsHats » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:59 am

Look at it this way - they've only just started. They weren't even first level when we met them. Their clan had fallen in power to the point that their best weapon was a pointy stick and a +1 sword that they weren't allowed to use. Since then, they've been to one town, had some random encounters, and are now entering their first dungeon crawl. They're picking up equipment - the Axe, Chief's spear, Thaco's blindfold - but they're still just starting out. It's been 10 years for us, but it hasn't been that long for them.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Talos » Tue Jul 26, 2016 3:33 am

WearsHats wrote:Look at it this way - they've only just started. They weren't even first level when we met them. Their clan had fallen in power to the point that their best weapon was a pointy stick and a +1 sword that they weren't allowed to use. Since then, they've been to one town, had some random encounters, and are now entering their first dungeon crawl. They're picking up equipment - the Axe, Chief's spear, Thaco's blindfold - but they're still just starting out. It's been 10 years for us, but it hasn't been that long for them.
It's not like most adventurers start off with very little equipment. Most classes early on have low-level starting gear, not next to none. The Axe was their one lucky break. The other two pieces of equipment were or are kinda limited in their usefulness. And the starting shield was both stupidly OP and a huge risk. I seem to recall that their tribe had spears and little axes early on.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Guus » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:33 am

What level are they, 3? 4? I don't remember. In my game I have a rule where about every two levels a character should get a magic item when they are in their low levels. So they would be a little low on magic items if I ran the campaign at this point.

I always counted the orc zombie cave as a dungeon crawl as well, but I guess that doesn't have to count.

Chief's spear was pretty powerful and very useful, changing your thrown weapon in a multi-hit attack (or in this case probably an area of effect attack) is pretty darn good. It was also a +1 if I recall correctly. Thaco's blindfold is probably a +x to attack, maybe even defence. Fumble's staff probably doubles as a quarter staff +x weapon, along with its property. I don't know about Complains' new sword, it could potentially be pretty strong I guess, but I don't know exactly how it works.

Thaco has armor, he just ripped part of it. It's fluff, but the bonus should still apply to his stats. Big Ears has his axe armour. Complains is naked, and should be wearing armor, I'm with you at that point. Barbarians can wear light and medium armor, he should be doing so, especially because they have had multiple situations where he at least could've grabbed a random non-magical set. Fumbles cannot wear armor, he basically has no class and therefore no proficiency in anything but cloth.

So yes, they haven't had the best deals so far, but they're not so underequipped (except for Complains' armor) that all should be sheer luck. Except for Fumbles, he doesn't make any sense.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by RocketScientist » Tue Jul 26, 2016 1:09 pm

Hasn't Thunt said that this is supposed to be a low magic world? It wouldn't seem very low magic if everybody had rings and amulets and whatnot. Plus if they had a bunch of magic items, odds are that somebody would be in here right now complaining about Monty Haul DMing.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Guus » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:37 pm

Different tastes for different folks :lol:

Honestly, I think the magical items are reaching it, but that's mainly because I am used to 4e and not 3.5. In 4e every class has powers, and yet more powers caused by different magic items can confuse some players. I have a player who I basically always give standard magic items that give static stat bonuses and maybe 1 activated item, because he will simply forget to use them properly. He'd go nuts using the shield of wonders, because he would forget that he's actually carrying the darn thing. I can imagine that it's easier to keep track of in 3.5, especially as a fighter type character.

Still, except for Complains and his "I don't wear any armor at all" thing that is, gamewise, not very smart for a barbarian, the others are pretty much geared up, although one could argue that they're not exactly being showered with magical riches. The DM in this game has his own homebrew monsters though, so it does not need to be unbalanced or anything.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Talos » Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:13 pm

Guus wrote:What level are they, 3? 4? I don't remember. In my game I have a rule where about every two levels a character should get a magic item when they are in their low levels. So they would be a little low on magic items if I ran the campaign at this point.

I always counted the orc zombie cave as a dungeon crawl as well, but I guess that doesn't have to count.

Chief's spear was pretty powerful and very useful, changing your thrown weapon in a multi-hit attack (or in this case probably an area of effect attack) is pretty darn good. It was also a +1 if I recall correctly. Thaco's blindfold is probably a +x to attack, maybe even defence. Fumble's staff probably doubles as a quarter staff +x weapon, along with its property. I don't know about Complains' new sword, it could potentially be pretty strong I guess, but I don't know exactly how it works.

Thaco has armor, he just ripped part of it. It's fluff, but the bonus should still apply to his stats. Big Ears has his axe armour. Complains is naked, and should be wearing armor, I'm with you at that point. Barbarians can wear light and medium armor, he should be doing so, especially because they have had multiple situations where he at least could've grabbed a random non-magical set. Fumbles cannot wear armor, he basically has no class and therefore no proficiency in anything but cloth.

So yes, they haven't had the best deals so far, but they're not so underequipped (except for Complains' armor) that all should be sheer luck. Except for Fumbles, he doesn't make any sense.
Chief was a cleric, and that class uses armor. I guess those turtle shells he had on his shoulders kinda counted? Sort of? As for Thaco, those are just pants. Not armor. I know he's a monk, so I guess that gives him a bit of a pass. Sort of. I won't go into Dies-Horribly's group much because only few of them were adventurers and were covered under standard expectations for armor and that sort of thing. I will say that for a fighter, Saves-a-Fox was underequipped, but they explain it to an extent. Fumbles is just a joke, but at least we agree on Complains. At a minimum, Chief was and Complains is ill-equipped.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Guus » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:17 am

Thaco gets a full pass because a monk loses his bonus if he wears armor. Cloth is the way to go for them.
And Chief: I think he was wearing light armor. That would fit with a cloistered cleric build. If not, then yes, he should be wearing heavier armor. It's not said that a cleric should be wearing heavy armor, so yeah, there's that.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Krulle » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:29 am

Chief never wanted to fight. He wanted to heal the party and stay in the background when there's a fight.
Light armour, if any armour at all, is the way. Keeps you more nimble and movable, thus better able to go around the battle ground and heal someone on the other side.

Plus, he never had much chance to grab some gear before Kore caught his group. Non-magical items do not resize for fit.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Morgaln » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:15 am

It's somewhat surprising the goblins don't have better armor. Simple protective gear like leather or hide armor, as well a shields made from wood and hide are easy to create even for a low-tech society. Considering they were living in a permanent state of war and were members of a war camp, one would think they would have protected themselves accordingly.

Then again, with the notable exception of Goblinslayer, actual full armor that does a reasonable job of protecting the wearer seems to be something that only happens to dwarves in the comic. Points in case: Minmax, the three drows, K'selliss, every goblin, Saral Caine, Biscuit, Idle, Bowst... In fact, you can be glad if they go as far as don a shirt. They world they are living in must be very warm.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Krulle » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:01 am

Armour is not good for hiding, and sneaking....
The Goblins live very close to the nature, so why?
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Morgaln » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:55 am

It's a war camp. Not a village, not a hunting party, a camp that is specifically there for adventurers to attack. They need to be prepared for battle, and that includes actual face-to-face melee. That's especially true since they are protecting a specific location, that isn't hidden in any way, and that they have chosen to use as the place of battle in case of an attack. Guerilla tactics don't work well in a situation like that. A few front line fighters with armor and shields would go a long way to keep enemy fighters locked in battle, protect the ranged fighters and allow the stealthier members to get into good positions. Armor would also protect from enemy missile fire (and accidental friendly fire, for that matter), which is a concern for your own ranged units.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Krulle » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:21 am

And yet they need to go hunting while in the war camp.

And in the war camp they were mere XP for novel adventurers.
They were the low-level opponents, giving just enough XP to level up the beginners.
As such they were intentional easy prey.

Yes, they were not tactical in any way. Logic only started later. As their clan laws showed, which forbid them from using anything adventurers carried into their camp, or anything else in the loot box ("poorly-locked treasure chest").
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Morgaln » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:32 am

Yes, they needed to go hunting. That doesn't mean they couldn't wear armor when in battle. The battle had been foretold by Young and Beautiful, so it's not like they were completely unaware it was coming. They would have had time to don armor instead of playing with sticks and fake mustaches.

The goblins themselves stated that it would be an intended goal to turn into a challenge for higher-level adventurers, because that would mean less enemies and thus less danger, and that they were that in the past before Chief led them. They didn't want to be easy prey. Armor could have helped achieving that. But I guess that brings us back to the question on whether the goblins actually have free will or are just empty shells controlled by a DM. I prefer the first interpretation and will judge their actions accordingly. :shrug:

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by thinkslogically » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:39 pm

But the whole joke of the early comic was that they were just fodder. They weren't permitted good gear because they were SUPPOSED to be a low level challenge and die. Yeah, it's dumb, but that was literally the point. Its the punchline the rest of the comic is built on.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by WearsHats » Wed Jul 27, 2016 9:30 pm

The way Thunt described it, the more you build up the clan - the power, skill, reputation, etc. - the higher level adventurers you face. But the higher the level, the rarer they are, so as your challenge rating goes up, you get raided by stronger enemies less often. Which is, on balance, if you can handle it, a good thing.

Under previous chiefs, right up to Chief's father, Crypitc Fall were strong, the envy of other clans. They faced high level parties, and they won. You can see in the statue garden the kind of enemies they faced and the pride they took in it.

But Chief was a bad chief. Everyone knew it. Most of all him. The clan has declined rapidly under him, to the point that they're facing newly formed first level parties on almost a daily basis. Their best warriors have been killed, their equipment plundered. So they've got nothing but some basic traps and a pointy stick.

At least, if they ever get back to the war camp, Chief's statue can honestly say that he was killed by a high level paladin.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Talos » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:36 pm

The point is not why the GAP is under equipped, only that they (mostly) are. The odds that such a badly-equipped party could last so long generally come down to luck and/or a benevolent GM. Even the more powerful goblin tribes seem to have an aversion to armor, footwear, shirts, and the inability to make anything more than decent weapons at best. We also see very few if any magic items among them (do you count health potions?). Mind you, goblins were intended to be part of primitive, low-level tribes fit for low-level players. Which explains why they often dress like they are going to the beach or something. Part of escaping that low power stigma is to acquire better equipment, the few exceptions I mentioned earlier (like the axe) notwithstanding.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Guus » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:45 am

Except that they are not except for Complains and Fumbles. And Fumbles only mind doesn't count anyway, so that leaves Complains. He should don some armor, yes, and I don't know why he doesn't except for Krulle's explanation that he hasn't found the right size of armor (which makes sense in a human city, which is the only place they could've grabbed something).

Thing is, it's mot really a sign of a benevolent GM, because the fact that there is no opportunity for them to get better stuff is also on the DM. He's the one not placing enough (in your opinion) magic items in their path. It's a balance. If a DM gives them little opportunity to find stuff then he should adjust the enemies they face accordingly. There are plenty of reasons in the story to complain about that you, as viewed as a game with the DM making up the situations, could bring up. I don't think that this is one of them. He isn't overly benevolent. Chief was killed off by mister railroad for making a single mistake. And it was completely useless.

And hey, maybe the wristband of the sword that protects their father's or whatever has a magical AC bonus that evens out the AC of Complains with the rest. In that case I think it should've been mentioned, but still, it also wasn't mentioned that he picked up a new sword and left his clan-defying weapon to rot on the ground. That's a little farfetched though.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Morgaln » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:53 am

I think the goblins are fine when it comes to magic items. They've found a number of them by now, at least one for each member.
As for regular equipment, I still think they should have come better equipped in the first place. Even though Chief was a mediocre, maybe even outright bad leader, the war camp should have had better equipment from past times when they were more powerful. That they didn't implies that they haven't used better equipment even before Chief took over. Which raises the question what previous leaders did to make the clan more powerful and what Chief did to cause the rapid decline. After all, those his age and older should still remember the tactics and strategies that Chief's father used to defend the camp. Unless Chief actively abolished those, that knowledge should have helped in slowing the decline. I'd be interested to see some explanations and/or flashbacks from that time.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Krulle » Thu Jul 28, 2016 5:05 am

Morgaln wrote:what Chief did to cause the rapid decline.
Well, he focuses on not having old fighters join any battle (http://www.goblinscomic.org/09242005/).
He moves the Garden of Sacred Statues together with the war camp, instead of leaving the garden somewhere hidden (or close to the village). Why would you put effort into carrying these heavy statues around, and when your war camp has forcibly been dissolved by some adventurers, why return and retrieve the statues to bring to the new war camp?

There are quite some illogical things when the story starts...
But then, why did Chief Kills-A-Werebear get killed? (by a seventh-level Barbarian: http://www.goblinscomic.org/01142006/) I assume together with Chief Kills-a-Werebear most of the clan's warriors were killed. Thus reducing the tactical and training capabilities of the clan.
Yeah, one lost battle can make the difference between being high-level attraction (and is "7th level" really that high?), and being a "first-XP-opponents" monster. The punishment for having lost a battle is always double. You loose your best men, and cannot train on that "high" level anymore, thus reducing future capabilities. And your opponents will kill you, as only the kill gives you XP.
So, possible Kills-A-Werebear's tactic included survival, which may have meant surrendering, or fleeing often. Just to survive and stay "high-level" attractors...

In-comic explanation of why Chief is chief, and the clan's decline: http://www.goblinscomic.org/02102006/
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Morgaln » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:47 am

I was under the impression that the war camp always was in that location and when a battle was lost, the goblins would later return and rebuild it in the same place. That's why they were keeping the garden there. I don't remember them moving the garden around, much less that being Chief's idea, but I might have missed something.

Rereading the page about why Chief is chief, the explanation actually contradicts itself. Apparently the goblin meant to lead the clan (which we know is Thaco) was destined to lead the clan to glory. But if he had become chief, there would have been a civil war that would destroy the clan forever. That's not just Chief's interpretation, but Thaco confirms it here. So how could he have both led the clan to glory and destroyed it at the same time?
Also, Chief was a newborn when his father died. Who led the clan in between? There is no mention of any other chief or regent or something like that who was leading until Chief became old enough to lead himself. Who led the clan? Who taught Chief how to lead? There must have been someone leading that could have trained him.
Clearly we are missing part of the picture here to understand why Chief was (allegedly) such a bad leader.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Gift Fastidious » Sun Sep 25, 2016 10:24 am

I would think that Thaco would lead them to temporary glory, only for a growing undercurrent of dissent arguing for Chief to be chief to reach the point where it could spark a civil war. As for who ruled in the internim, I'm not sure, but would guess that Young-and-Beautiful probably guided the clan with the help of various elders until Chief was old enough.

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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Guus » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:08 pm

I think that Chief didn't have enough of a backbone to go against Thaco if the old man really decided to go and fight. It's doubtful that something like that would spark a civil war. Chief wasn't capable of leading, and he brought the clan down with him. His lack of actual leadership did them in.
At least, that's how I interpreted the situation. You might very well be right.
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Re: Low Equipment Party

Post by Gift Fastidious » Sun Sep 25, 2016 6:03 pm

The situation they're in and the one that would have happened in Thaco became Chief aren't the same. I don't think Chief would be leading the fight to become chief, but rather he'd be swept up in the wave of supporters wether he'd want to or not. Maybe a crowd of goblins would be outside his house each day to yell mean things about how he supposedly wouldn't deserve to be Kills-a-Werebear's son if he didn't step up to the position of chief.

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