April 12, 2016: How?

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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Hjerne » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:35 am

I said it a ways back and I'll say it again. The demons are MM and GAP from the future. The one demon that attacks instantly does so because he is MM. Really what else would MM do? You can't expect him to think. So the only thing the GAP can do is try to stop BE at that point before he breaks the axe.

And why does the axe break? Name one single character in this entire comic strip from beginning to end who is more innocent and goodhearted than Fumbles. Of course the Axe explodes when it hits him. It could have had its enchantment boosted to the maximum it has had since the day the demon was trapped and it would still probably explode if it was used to attack Fumbles.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:52 am

Nerre wrote:So maybe what Ears felt while using "detect evil", wasn't the evil within the GAPMM-Copies, but the strong evil from his own axe, overriding any sources of evil by blinding him and making him almost throw up.
But why didn't the same thing happen when he used detect evil on the door golem?

Long thinking short: While Thunt displays the goblins as good in his comics, he maybe still follows the rulebook about them being evil in regards of the Axe of Prissan rules. Only thing that makes sense to me, after the axe broke. But I would be happy to be proven wrong, as I would like the goblins to really be good and not only from our point of view.
If he were evil, then he couldn't be a paladin. He wouldn't have paladin abilities and the axe wouldn't phase through him. Good and evil aren't points of view in 3.x (or maybe even any version of DnD). They are independent divine forces that shape the universe.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Nerre » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:57 pm

@Hjerne: This makes sense up to one point: if they turned into demons, they would not be good anymore, even Fumbles. If Ears would accidentally hit the normal Fumbles okay, but not with hitting the other guy. Even if he was Fumbles-turned into deamon, it would have also affected his alignment. Complains maybe was saved from turning evil and only move a little further from good to neutral, cause he was not fully transformed back when the shield of wonders did this.

@YardMeat: I don't know which Dnd the comic is based uppon, but isn't there such a thing as an Antipaladin, who gets granted the same abilities by an evil deity? While I agree, that the players do not automatically have to be evil cause their culture is evil, but Ears gets his spells clearly from Maglubiyet, who definitly is an neutral evil god (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglubiyet) except if Thunt houseruled him a neutral good good for the goblin player chars. On the other hand, he can heal living creatures, which an Antipaladin or evil cleric could not. Again on other hand, that could be a houserule as well.
Also, the players did not decline their culture or cultural alignment like Drizzt.
However we turn it, there is clearly one rule changed from the normal game, and at this point we can only guess which one.
I doubt Thunt turned everything upside down, as there have been good amongst the normally good creatures as well (some of the human travellers or city dwellers).
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Guus » Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:19 pm

Anti-Paladin exists, it's called a death knight. That's not what BE is. He gets his power from his lawful good alignment and honors Maglubiyet. He doesn't het his powers from his goddess. The only rule that is actively changed from standard D&D is Fumble's multiclass. The rest is according to D&D lore according to THunt (although I don't agree if I look at his monster creation). Kore's Paladin thingy is according to the rules according to THunt, although that seems impossible to me, but as he says it is I will wait until something either proves me right or proves me wrong. Same goes for what makes someone a Paladin. As long as he didn't show anything that would cost BE his powers immediatly (like a lie that directly causes harm/death) I will assume he is following the rules.

The goblins didn't denounce their culture as "we actively hate who our people are" like Drizzt, but they did go away from their culture and denounced it by becoming player characters. That's how the (kind of rigid but that's how games work) system makes sense: as soon as they decided on being player characters their characters become realigned. They are now part of the cosmos, but as players who change reality instead of actors who change reality to fit a PC's story. It's difficult (or mainly, not possible) to pin-point exactly, but the fact they become PC's allowed them to be different from their people according to 3.5 rules. Normally, a goblin is of the evil alignment, chaotic evil if I remember correctly, but because they are PC's there is a difference between them and their race. That also means that BE's friend (I forgot it for now) was, by default, evil. Because a cleric too can lose powers by endorsing evil acts and Forgath is still able to use his powers.
You might be right, but is it productive?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby LarsenSan » Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:06 pm

Guus wrote:Anti-Paladin exists, it's called a death knight.

No, it's called a Blackguard. This is not World of Warcraft :lol:

Also, goblins are not evil by nature, only their average culture. Goblins don't have the [evil] subtype.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:50 pm

Nerre wrote:@YardMeat: I don't know which Dnd the comic is based uppon, but isn't there such a thing as an Antipaladin, who gets granted the same abilities by an evil deity?
There are Antipaladins, but their abilities are different from what we've seen in BE.

While I agree, that the players do not automatically have to be evil cause their culture is evil, but Ears gets his spells clearly from Maglubiyet, who definitly is an neutral evil god
Nah, paladins don't get their abilities from deities in 3.5. And we haven't seen BE mention Maglubiyet at all, let alone worship.

I doubt Thunt turned everything upside down, as there have been good amongst the normally good creatures as well (some of the human travellers or city dwellers).
Anything involving BE secretly being evil would definitely turn everything Thunt has written upside down, and would involve a ton of houserules to explain his paladinhood.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Guus » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:40 am

Excuse me Larsent, you're right :oops:
You might be right, but is it productive?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby RowenMorland » Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:33 pm

Could it be an illusion? The dungeon does seem to be themed on the senses. Was the "will change things forever" announcement made on april 1st?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Nerre » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:43 am

Okay, didn't know paladins were treated differently in 3.5. In older D&D versions all cleric and paladin powers came from their gods through prayers, which were the equivalent of the wizard preparing his spells.
Then I have to denounce my theory it seems.
I got a new idea about the attack on the copy of Fumbles breaking the axe. Fumbles had 2/11th of a paladin level before he got captured and tortured. Maybe it is impossible for him to get hurt by the axe. On the other hand, maybe that is exactly what broke the axe: With him not having a full level in paladin yet, he maybe did not fully count as paladin, so the axe did not completely went into incorporel state. How about 9/11th stayed solid, and 2/11th did not. This could have broken the axe.
The explosion doesn't have to come from the hit, maybe it is power from the demon escaping.

I really hope the demon won't take over the goblins, especially Complains, as he got hit by a fragment.

@RowenMorland: Maybe it is an Illusion, cause the outside door was covered with one or more eyes, while the inside door was the hour glass (or something similar looking). Can illusions have an alignment as long as you believe into them?

I wonder what happens if Dies meets the group, as he is not a player char yet. Maybe then we will see which alignment the warcamp had according to Thunt. Based on the behaviour of the other goblin ambassadors back in the clan of the vipers, I think they are far more down the road to good or neutral than most of the other goblin tribes. Only the dark green who did not want to join the beating of Dies showed similar neutral-to-good behaviour.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Morgaln » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:23 am

Alignment is not tied to being a player character or not, but is always individual. Goblins are "usually neutral evil," according to the D&D 3.5 Monstrous Manual. That is defined as "The majority (more than 50%) of these creatures have the given alignment." In reverse, that means that a lot of goblins are not neutral evil. The warcamp didn't have an alignment, since it isn't a sapient being, but every goblin in there had one and not all of them were necessarily the same. The members of the GAP very likely already had the alignments they have now before choosing character classes.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:13 am

Nerre wrote:Okay, didn't know paladins were treated differently in 3.5.
No worries. A lot of DMs still run campaigns where paladins get their abilities from deities, even in 3rd ed. In the core rules for third ed, however, there are two types of sources for divine magic: deities and divine forces. Clerics can get their spells and abilities from either deities or divine forces (not even clerics have to worship deities in 3rd ed). Rangers and druids get their spells and abilities from the divine force of nature. Paladins get their spells and abilities from the divine force of good and the divine force of law. That said, a lot of DMs ignore that fact and house rule otherwise.

There is also the possibility that alignment works differently in Thuntverse. Good and evil appear to have some sort of objective existence (hence abilities like detect evil and smite evil), but I'm not so sure about law and chaos. We've already seen how Thunt uses demons (chaotic evil in 3rd ed) and devils (lawful evil in 3rd ed) interchangeably. And, if law and chaos aren't an issue in Thuntverse, it would explain why Fumbles is able to be a paladin (normally requiring a lawful good alignment) and a bard (which normally can't have a lawful alignment). Maybe good, neutral and evil are the only aligments in Thuntverse?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby neilcsd » Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:26 pm

Hey guys not to be rude, but aren't we missing the bigger point?

The giant world beating megavoltron uberdeath demon originally contained in the axe is now free??
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:12 am

neilcsd wrote:Hey guys not to be rude, but aren't we missing the bigger point?

The giant world beating megavoltron uberdeath demon originally contained in the axe is now free??

I don't think anyone is missing it; we're just wondering the same thing Big Ears is -- How? Does it have anything to do with Complains' own weapon suddenly acting funny? Are these creatures some sort of mirror version of the team, or is it just a coincidence that there are exactly four demons (one of which is significantly larger than the others) and that the demons have the same weapon spread as the party (two have swords, one has a staff, one has an axe and the other fights unarmed)? If the creatures are some sort of mirror party, then is there some significance to the fact that that the demon's axe is cracked? Does this have anything to do with the staff, which may be mimicking the properties of Fumbles' staff?

The last couple of comics introduce a lot of questions. Here's hoping those questions will be resolved before the story switches to the Kins, the Forgath party, the Dies Horribly party or Biscuit. I'm of the opinion that the demons are some sort of mirror party. The similarities are too strong to be a coincidence and I doubt Thunt would have the Axe destroyed while fighting a group of nameless dungeon mooks.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Arch Lich Burns » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:30 am

Even if they are mirrors, it os compleatly contrived and they detected evil, not the axe. Detect evil is los anyways so he shoyld know it was the axe like the time he detected evil on caine
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:41 am

Arch Lich Burns wrote:Even if they are mirrors, it os compleatly contrived and they detected evil, not the axe. Detect evil is los anyways so he shoyld know it was the axe like the time he detected evil on caine

I'd need to go back and look, but didn't BE specifically identify the Axe as being so evil? I don't think we've seen an instance where he was mistaken about anyone's alignment because of the Axe. Even if he were mistaken, the other party attacked, so I would think that defense would be justified. I'd be extremely disappointed if this were some sort of "sorry, you hit a good guy, so the Axe broke" explanation. I think it's more likely that this has something to do with the staff. If they are some sort of mirror party (which wouldn't necessarily mean that they aren't evil), then the demon's staff may have similarities with Fumbles' staff, which we've seen dissolve a (magic?) trap before.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby YardMeat » Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:49 am

http://www.goblinscomic.org/02112007/
http://www.goblinscomic.org/02122007/

Yep, when BE used detect evil on SC, GS and Kin, he correctly identified SC and GS as evil and was able to see that Kin was not evil, despite the presence of the Axe. The Axe had an overwhelming aura of evil, but it didn't cloud his ability to detect evil or cause him to incorrectly identify anyone as evil. There's no reason to think that the Axe caused a misfire in this case -- if it did, not only would it be really contrived, it would also be a continuity error.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby RocketScientist » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:06 am

If this room is creating mirror parties, which it seems to be, then I really hope we get to see a mirror Kore.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Davis8488 » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:34 pm

RocketScientist wrote:If this room is creating mirror parties, which it seems to be, then I really hope we get to see a mirror Kore.


Do you think a mirror of the demon will appear when the demon does, or is there possibly one already contained within the green mirror's ax?

Another thing to consider, if the mirror party is demonic, it could be that the spell that creates them automatically creates demonic copies of all who enter, as a mirror opposite of Complains should otherwise be part angelic. This would make sense, because a reverse party, evil for good and good for evil, would not be effective against neutral adventurers. If that is the case, then this might be the worst possible place for the ax demon to have escaped.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Krulle » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:24 am

Which is a neat way to get rid of an overpowered opponent.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby RocketScientist » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:35 am

Hmm. That's a frightening prospect. But spitting out demonized versions, rather than mirrors per se, would make sense. Would that make Complains' demon a double demon?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Guus » Thu Apr 21, 2016 11:30 am

I don't like how every theory is incredibly convoluted, it doesn't bode well for the story. I hop THunt came up with something a hundred fold better.
You might be right, but is it productive?
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby Krulle » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:08 am

yeah. The ancient dungeon has of course magical elements protecting it from being destroyed.
When the demon from the AoP escapes it tries to destroy the dungeon to get out, and the ancient magic simply annihilates or banishes the demon.
Problem solved.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby RocketScientist » Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:32 pm

My son's theory is that the axe didn't really break. The dungeon is messing with our heads. Doesn't account for "the comic will change forever," but maybe our reaction to having our heads messed with like that is what changes it. It has the virtue of not being convoluted, anyway.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby MrBogey » Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:37 pm

What if it's as simple as the prison was still weak and the incredible amount of evil was just too much for the axe? Sort of like smashing steel against steel. The more brittle loses.
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Re: April 12, 2016: How?

Postby MapsGroxily » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:57 pm

Hi guys, has been a while!

Let's look at what we know:

- They entered a door with eyes on it, and then a door with what appears to be an hourglass on it, then went through a hallway to reach this room.

- There are 5 'demons', one significantly bigger then the rest and all of them showing some traits of the GAP (The red demon's demon claw and hoofed feet, the grey demon's stature, the purple demon's immediate reaction to minmax's voice and using a sword that looks to be grafted to him (like how minmax's sword cannot ever not be in his hand, whenever he tries his future self grabs it) etc.)

- The axe hit the 'fumbles' demon's staff and an explosion occurs, shattering one of the axe's blade and lodging part of it into Complains.

- The axe is now smoking badly and in a worrying way, the final panel has a red hue on it's edges, and the white border for the comic turns yellow (the same tint as his armor no less) and has cracks on the corner of the last panel.

There are two possible outcomes to this i'd be satisfied with:

A. The many doors all lead to the same room but change the challenge within that room, and the initial door you enter also changes the challenge. So entering a nose door and a time door to get to the next room would impose a challenge involving smell and time. In this case, they entered with an eye door and a time door, thus the result is a challenge involving sight and time. In other words, they are either directly fighting themselves but cannot tell due to an illusion, or fighting constructs based on their future selves. The Axe comes into play with the illusion; it's a trick to trip up the team, and may even summon a 'false demon' to really sell home the point. I'm not sure how you'd counter this, and one point against this is that Thaco can still see the demons even with his eyes covered, so either the effect encompasses even that or this fell through.

B. The demon really is about to be released due to a combination of lack of good deeds showered on it, a lot of questionable things done to it (I too put my stock into the whole 'giving it to a half-demon' thing) and all of this made it so fragile that actual combat finally broke it, not so much anything related to the thing it actually hit.
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