August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

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Morgaln
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Morgaln » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:25 am

SGTdude wrote:
Morgaln wrote:I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but that is just lazy. A comic is a very visual medium. It's the embodiment of "show, don't tell".
......
This also applies to what was brought up in another thread, that the time of day cannot be told from the images.comic.
I have to respond here, basically because I am one of the most qualified individuals to do so.

First, no. That last statement is not what was said. I happen to know because you are in fact misquoting me and I heard the information from THunt firsthand. Most of the time of day can be reasonably guessed at from the events depicted in the comic. And those guesses are drawn directly from what was shared (whether images or words). It can not be known precisely because time, while helpful, is a minimal focus of this comic making that last statement an unfair criticism (and just not true). But if that kind of accuracy is what you want from your fiction go watch 24 (and even that show plays a little loose with time). Which leads me to point 2.

Second, the thing is the thing, and in Goblins the thing is essentially "yay the goblins win." We are all waiting to see that happen, and are very interested in how that happens. But we must reasonably allow for slight deviations (we could even say mistakes) on the path of making progress towards seeing that end reached. To demand otherwise is...well...intellectually dishonest.

But to show that I'm stating a fact and not just being rude, please take this challenge and prove me wrong:

Name a single work of fiction told in a visual medium that is generally regarded as successful and is completely without any sort of continuity errors or mistake.


Tl;dr - be a fan, not a fanatic.
Actually, that is what you said here: http://www.goblinsforum.com/viewtopic.p ... 50#p183559
RocketScientist wrote:So is Thunt telling us that we don't know whether it is day or night in any given scene, unless someone tells us? :?
SGTdude wrote:Basically. It does seem confusing because it makes it harder to tell when things happen. But this, along with another thing he told me, might make easier to figure out what happens when. All will be made clear, i hope, when i restart the Unofficial Timeline.
You confirmed RocketScientist's assumption that day or night can only be determined by what characters say. That means images are completely irrelevant in that regard. If that is incorrect, then it is you who made the misquote.

Obviously, no successful comic line will be without continuity errors. Most of them number into the tens of thousands of pages, with numerous reboots and various authors who make up new stories all the time, not roughly 500 pages written by a single person, following a preconceived script. I'd also wager that, for example Order of the Stick (which has about double the pages of Goblins and hasn't been predetermined to its conclusion in advance) does sport less continuity errors than Goblins (although there are sure to be a few minor ones).

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by SGTdude » Tue Aug 04, 2015 11:55 am

I "confirmed" it because saying "yes, but I will explain later" is easier than saying "we don't know whether it is day or night in any given scene unless someone tells us. Unless it happens to be one of those scenes which allow us to determine the time of day by the contextual clues which can, and sometimes do, include the color if the sky." Even that statement demands specific examples in order to prove the point and establish the pattern for determining time, and I am not prepared at this time to present those examples (but they are coming).

This:
Morgaln wrote: Obviously, no successful comic line will be without continuity errors. Most of them number into the tens of thousands of pages, with numerous reboots and various authors who make up new stories all the time, not roughly 500 pages written by a single person, following a preconceived script. I'd also wager that, for example Order of the Stick (which has about double the pages of Goblins and hasn't been predetermined to its conclusion in advance) does sport less continuity errors than Goblins (although there are sure to be a few minor ones).
is a very adequate explanation of the point I was making on why the specifics about BE getting loose are not important enough to make a fuss about.

To try to summarize again: its fun to dig into the details, but that shouldnt be done to the point that it takes away from the main purpose of the comic (a mistake I have also made in the past).

Less :stab: :stab: more :D :lol:
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RocketScientist
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by RocketScientist » Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:48 pm

I'm still confused about the time of day/sky thing. But we're inside at the moment, so I'm willing to let it slide until it becomes important/is explained by someone. I guess I just don't feel like it's all that artistically advantageous to draw a sky that makes it look like the wrong time of day.

I don't have a problem with the ropes as drawn. But I do kind of wish he'd drawn the floor stones. I completely forgot that they looked like that, even though in hindsight, it should be obvious that it wasn't a single smooth floor slab. And if you peer at the last panel, there are slight indications that the axe landed between the floor stones.

Also, I'm almost positive that Rich has indeed predetermined the entire Order of the Stick. IIRC, he wrote out the full storyline for the comic while the party was still in that first dungeon cracking jokes. If he were making it up as he went along, it would probably have turned into a hot mess, like Lost.

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Morgaln » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:11 pm

As far as I know, Rich asked for speculations on the OotS storyline to be put under spoilers on the forum because he didn't want them to influence the story. That strongly hints that the story isn't completely predetermined already. Based on that, I assumed he was deciding the story mostly one chapter at a time. But then I don't have that information first hand so I might be mistaken.

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Krulle » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:44 pm

He may also have general ideas where he wants to go with which Ockhams razor Checkov's gun he placed, but may not know when he wishes to spring the layed trap.
And the capter-by-chapter written is the one I would place my bets on, although that after the current chapter I presume the story is hazy, and not fleshed out.
Last edited by Krulle on Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by SGTdude » Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:51 pm

RocketScientist wrote:I'm still confused about the time of day/sky thing. But we're inside at the moment, so I'm willing to let it slide until it becomes important/is explained by someone. I guess I just don't feel like it's all that artistically advantageous to draw a sky that makes it look like the wrong time of day.
I promise my explanation is coming (which I am pretty certain is as close to on point as it can be). I feel like I understand both sides of the thing too: on one hand I find the fact that the color of a sky may not indicate what time it is confusing. But at the same time I can understand the mood of a picture (especially when dealing with a comic that is only a couple of frames long). If the action happens at night, it can give all of the events a dark feeling (if the sky is always depicted accurately). But if some liberties are taken, the sky becomes a background to help reinforce the mood of what is being displayed. I hope that helps, if it does not...wait for my answers in the other thread.
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Zathyr » Tue Aug 04, 2015 3:39 pm

Krulle wrote:He may also have general ideas where he wants to go with which Ockhams razor he placed, but may not know when he wishes to spring the layed trap.
Do you perhaps mean Chekhov's Gun?

And IIRC, the scene where Kore walks into the warcamp was one of the scenes where Thunt played with the lighting for a more dramatic effect. I have no problem with something like that, personally.

As for the ropes around Big Ears, the armor does block the view of most of them - they could be tangled around him quite a bit. And we don't know from what angle exactly we're looking at things when he slips out. He could've shifted his body weight or arched his back just before dismissing the armor to slip out easier. I don't think we need that much detail, personally. It's enough to know he was tangled up in ropes, and now he isn't.
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by JustRight » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:01 pm

Krulle wrote:He may also have general ideas where he wants to go with which Ockhams razor he placed, but may not know when he wishes to spring the layed trap.
And the capter-by-chapter written is the one I would place my bets on, although that after the current chapter I presume the story is hazy, and not fleshed out.

Aren't we all expecting / hoping to have events in the dungeon prove to Minmax and Names, probably by saving each others' lives, that they aren't the enemies they thought they were? - I'm imagining a handshake between them somewhere down the line. :)
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by RocketScientist » Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:02 pm

I don't mean to suggest that Rich has every page written in stone, but I do think he wrote the overall story quite a while ago. (Which is the same thing Thunt did.) As an example, look at the top reward from the Kickstarter. Rich promised a walk on for the person's D&D character. When he saw the character, he decided to use her in an existing spot, rather than as a walk on extra. (Rich explains it better at the link.) That strongly suggests to me that it's as pre-written as Goblins, but can be adapted as wanted and/or needed.

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Krulle » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:22 am

Zathyr wrote:
Krulle wrote:He may also have general ideas where he wants to go with which Ockhams razor he placed, but may not know when he wishes to spring the layed trap.
Do you perhaps mean Chekhov's Gun?
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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by Glemp » Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:56 am

JustRight wrote:
Krulle wrote:He may also have general ideas where he wants to go with which Ockhams razor he placed, but may not know when he wishes to spring the layed trap.
And the capter-by-chapter written is the one I would place my bets on, although that after the current chapter I presume the story is hazy, and not fleshed out.

Aren't we all expecting / hoping to have events in the dungeon prove to Minmax and Names, probably by saving each others' lives, that they aren't the enemies they thought they were? - I'm imagining a handshake between them somewhere down the line. :)
I'm not, I think it'd be a cliched Disney ending. I'd prefer for them to actually deal with the fact that they've both done things to each other - Complains gave MM that scar, and MM was pretty ruthless with the "goblins are walking sacks of XP" thing in his attack. Sure, they can be friends after that, but just skipping to that part would be a copout in my mind.

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Re: 1 Aug. 2015: Can you even Axe? - Fore!

Post by StClair » Wed Aug 05, 2015 1:08 am

SpeaksManyLanguages wrote:
Aegis J Hyena wrote:I wonder if Thaco saw the "attack" coming while blindfolded. Heh.
In the livestream Thunt said that Thaco would see the axe if he would happen to look up. He didn't look up.
Huh. Well, thanks for posting that, since I didn't watch the stream and it was my assumption that he wouldn't, because it wasn't an "attack", made with intent, but a falling object, dropped by accident.
Which IMO would be an appropriate limitation of the magic item; but that would mean (and it occurs to me, as I think more on it, that this might be exactly why THunt didn't make it so) that he couldn't just wear it all the time, or even in every combat, without making himself vulnerable to other hazards, traps, and... fumbles.

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by SpeaksManyLanguages » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:06 am

RocketScientist wrote:I don't mean to suggest that Rich has every page written in stone, but I do think he wrote the overall story quite a while ago. (Which is the same thing Thunt did.) As an example, look at the top reward from the Kickstarter. Rich promised a walk on for the person's D&D character. When he saw the character, he decided to use her in an existing spot, rather than as a walk on extra. (Rich explains it better at the link.) That strongly suggests to me that it's as pre-written as Goblins, but can be adapted as wanted and/or needed.
I don't have supporting quotes right now, but I believe Rich talks about it in the foreword of at least one of the printed books. He started the comic ÔÇö the very first arc ÔÇö without a grand plan in his head, just a D&D party delving into the dungeon that has some sort of the evil boss in the end. However, once he got somewhere in 2-digit number of pages, he devised that grand scheme and written the outline of the plot for many and many chapters. He doesn't have a page-by-page script, yes, but the arcs, the events and plot points for the characters are already decided. He couldn't give an estimate on how much of the comic is left, though, because when he writes the chapters page by page, they tend to turn out longer than initially designed. Much longer.

Edit: found something that was in an early FAQ, things developed even more since
Q:How long will OOTS last? How far in advance do you have OOTS planned?

A: Pretty damn far. I have ideas for story arcs that will last at least five years, though I don't have individual strips written more than a few days or weeks ahead. Keep in mind that although OOTS has a joke-a-day, it has plotlines that are set up far in advance of their resolution. OOTS does indeed have a finite lifespan, however, and I already know what the last panel of the last comic will be, so don't expect it to linger around forever.
Edit2: more relevant links:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... st19159837


http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthre ... st15827621

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by RocketScientist » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:47 pm

Thanks, Speaks. That's about what I thought. I bought the prequel books, so that's probably where I read about it.

Btw, The Start of Darkness is an insanely good read, which every OotS fan should own. On the Origin of PCs is also pretty entertaining.

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Re: August 1, 2015: Can you even Axe?

Post by SpeaksManyLanguages » Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:07 am

oh yeah, SoD is the one i have from the kickstarter! it is amazing

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