Patreon ($1.3K Reached by End of Month 1)

[Sessine]

Breathing space? I don't know about that.

Sure, it would relieve financial anxiety. That's something. But money won't buy him more hours in the day, or reduce emotional stress, or make it one whit easier for him to focus. He's still pulling all-nighters. He's dealing with the pain of a stress-induced ulcer. He's a long way from recovered, yet, and the way this Patreon is set up worries me.

If those stretch goals are things he wants to do anyway, then he should just do them. Because he wants to.

Making them conditional on other people contributing a certain (unrealistic) amount makes Other People his boss. Again. He quit, remember? We're not hiring him back!

[WearsHats]

Yeah, no thanks. Hunt already has a crap ton of promises he can't/didn't keep, so lets add more AND pay him for it? You are crazy. I like Goblins, I do, and I'm sure Hunt isn't all bad, but this? Too much.

You've totally missed the point of how this works.

This isn't him promising a bunch of crap and expecting money even if he doesn't deliver. This is us promising to support him when he delivers. He gets paid monthly by the page. If he doesn't post a page, he gets nothing. As explained above, the reward perks aren't much extra work for him at all.

And what promises has he broken? Do we really have to debunk the same BS again?

For Tempts, he promised four pages and he delivered four pages. He hasn't done the two extra pages that he announced after the drive ended, but everything he promised at the time of donation has been delivered. And the Tempts story works as it is. We just haven't gotten the epilogue that we'd never been promised in the first place.

The Kickstarter? Not him. He licensed the name to a game development company. They're the ones who failed to deliver, and they failed him most of all. He got a small chunk of money for doing the art that went on the cards, but that's it, and he delivered his part. He did the art they needed. But instead of accepting that the game developers failed and the company imploded, he's decided to finish their job and send out rewards at his own expense. He's been transparent about what's going on. And he explicitly hasn't committed to a timeline.

So tell me. What has he promised and not delivered? The only legitimate gripe you have is that he can't keep to an update schedule. He had a mental breakdown which ruined his life for a year (from which he is still in recovery), in part because he spends more time working on the comic than is humanly possible. I've witnessed it firsthand. And, again, he doesn't get paid unless he posts something, and he's explicitly not setting an update schedule.

So, no, he's not promising anything he can't do.

You don't have to pledge if you don't want to, but leave the tired old zombie lies out of this.

Moving on... Sessine posted as I was writing this up.

It's much-needed extra income. He's already depending on the comic for his household income. He's not doing extra work except for a quick sketch on the side. He's not promising an update schedule. He's just letting readers donate as he produces material. It's not putting any more pressure on him. And it's not making us his boss. He's just offering a few small perks to encourage and thank donors. I don't see the problem.

[Sessine]

It's much-needed extra income. He's already depending on the comic for his household income. He's not doing extra work except for a quick sketch on the side. He's not promising an update schedule. He's just letting readers donate as he produces material. It's not putting any more pressure on him. And it's not making us his boss. He's just offering a few small perks to encourage and thank donors. I don't see the problem.

Oh. Okay. (I was looking more at those stretch goals, but hey. Next time you're talking to him, please tell him again that we care, all right?)

[imrahil]

He's dealing with the pain of a stress-induced ulcer.

Minor quibble: stress does not, in fact, cause ulcers.

[WearsHats]

The ulcer, from what he said (I think on Twitter, possibly the livestream) was caused by taking too much aspirin. Which he was taking for headaches. Which were caused, in part, by stress and sleep deprivation.

[Davis8488]

A little late for this update, but the Patreon is more than half-way to Thunt's first milestone.

[WearsHats]

Oh. Okay. (I was looking more at those stretch goals, but hey. Next time you're talking to him, please tell him again that we care, all right?)

Ah. I'm not sure how long it takes to make a video. (Theoretically, it could just be him talking off the top of his head for five minutes, but it could involve several hours of preparation and editing, depending on how he handles things.) But it's not like he's proposing to make a new video every month or every page, at least not from what I can tell. *shrug*

Also, while I'm more than tired of the "he promised us stuff and didn't deliver" crap that keeps getting endlessly debunked and then rehashed again, none of that frustration was directed at you. You raised an objection, I disagreed. It just doesn't strike me as a problem. That's it. I think this is a good thing for him. He overworks himself, but I don't think that this is going to make him overwork himself any more than he otherwise would.

A little late for this update, but the Patreon is more than half-way to Thunt's first milestone.

On the one hand: YAY!! Go Goblins fans!

OTOH: Thunt needs to be better at asking people for money.

There's another webcomic called Not Invented Here which is much smaller than Goblins. Recently, they cut back on updates and took several hiatuses. They explained that they weren't making enough money at it to be sustainable. So they made a big deal about how the comic would just end unless the new Patreon was successful. They said it over and over on Twitter, posted a banner link to the Patreon above the comic, wrote blog entries below the comic, and probably more than I didn't see. In just a couple of weeks, they had over $1000 in pledges.

Thunt has tweeted once about the Patreon and wrote a single small blog entry. Those are the only links I've come across. (Which reminds me: I should post it to the FB group.) There's no way he's going to hold the comic hostage to get more pledges, but he could be better about spreading the word. Maybe he's just waiting until he finishes the video, but I do hope he advertises it more.

[RocketScientist]

A bit OT, but

Marshall, along with his colleague and fellow Nobel winner Robin Warren, proved that up to 90 percent of peptic ulcers are caused by a bacterium called Helicobacter pylori

So what causes the other 10 percent?

Also OT, I am happy to announce that I am h. pylori-free. I had multiple tests and antibiotics for it a couple of months ago.

[Lurks_In_Shadows]

A bit OT, but

Marshall, along with his colleague and fellow Nobel winner Robin Warren, proved that up to 90 percent of peptic ulcers are caused by a bacterium called Helicobacter pylori

So what causes the other 10 percent?

Hmm.... My observations don't necessarily reflect this. I spend more time looking for this than finding it. Maybe it's my patient population. The other 10%? Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories, alcohol, other meds that can irritate the stomach, viral infections, severe physiologic stress (ICU ulcers), a few odd tumors, and then just plain "I don't know". Before Tagamet, it would have primarily been the Aspirin/ibuprofen/Aleve type ulcers. Used to have almost 1 bleeding ulcer admission every other night during residency. Never will forget the smell. You can tell a GI bleed is in just by walking onto the ward and smelling it.

[imrahil]

The ulcer, from what he said (I think on Twitter, possibly the livestream) was caused by taking too much aspirin. Which he was taking for headaches. Which were caused, in part, by stress and sleep deprivation.

...which were caused by working. Which was caused by needing to get paid. Which was caused by needing to eat. Which was caused by being a human being. Which was caused by being born. Etc.

Stress still doesn't cause ulcers.

[Davis8488]

There's another webcomic called Not Invented Here which is much smaller than Goblins. Recently, they cut back on updates and took several hiatuses. They explained that they weren't making enough money at it to be sustainable. So they made a big deal about how the comic would just end unless the new Patreon was successful. They said it over and over on Twitter, posted a banner link to the Patreon above the comic, wrote blog entries below the comic, and probably more than I didn't see. In just a couple of weeks, they had over $1000 in pledges.

I would like to point out that Thunt's Patreon has been available for a few days, rather than a couple of weeks, so it might be too early to compare the two.

Also, I feel like it will be much easier to draw donors to Patreon once updates return to a frequency of once per week or higher. 2014 was a bad year to be a Goblins fan, and it will take time to win back the full support from those who fell away.


Potentially offensive.

► Show Spoiler

High pressure sales is not Thunt's thing, and I think if he were to try it now it would be received poorly. Would he threaten to take away the comic? "How would that be any different than the last year?" people would ask. Thunt considers many of his fans (if not most) personal friends, and the tactics you've described are not how friends treat each other. Personally, if I didn't like the artist, if I had never sat up late listening to him talk as he drew his comic, I wouldn't have paid attention to his Patreon until he resumed regular updates.

[Mec]

Also, I feel like it will be much easier to draw donors to Patreon once updates return to a frequency of once per week or higher.

This.

[RocketScientist]

A bit OT, but

Marshall, along with his colleague and fellow Nobel winner Robin Warren, proved that up to 90 percent of peptic ulcers are caused by a bacterium called Helicobacter pylori

So what causes the other 10 percent?

Hmm.... My observations don't necessarily reflect this. I spend more time looking for this than finding it. Maybe it's my patient population. The other 10%? Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatories, alcohol, other meds that can irritate the stomach, viral infections, severe physiologic stress (ICU ulcers), a few odd tumors, and then just plain "I don't know". Before Tagamet, it would have primarily been the Aspirin/ibuprofen/Aleve type ulcers. Used to have almost 1 bleeding ulcer admission every other night during residency. Never will forget the smell. You can tell a GI bleed is in just by walking onto the ward and smelling it.

Yikes. Thanks, Lurks.

[mustache_man]

OTOH: Thunt needs to be better at asking people for money.

There's another webcomic called Not Invented Here which is much smaller than Goblins. Recently, they cut back on updates and took several hiatuses. They explained that they weren't making enough money at it to be sustainable. So they made a big deal about how the comic would just end unless the new Patreon was successful. They said it over and over on Twitter, posted a banner link to the Patreon above the comic, wrote blog entries below the comic, and probably more than I didn't see. In just a couple of weeks, they had over $1000 in pledges.

Thunt has tweeted once about the Patreon and wrote a single small blog entry. Those are the only links I've come across. (Which reminds me: I should post it to the FB group.) There's no way he's going to hold the comic hostage to get more pledges, but he could be better about spreading the word. Maybe he's just waiting until he finishes the video, but I do hope he advertises it more.

They have over a thousand dolllars in pledges, true. It's also a monthly pledge. Thunt's patreon charges per page. If he puts out two pages per month, he should clear that. Assuming most people that pledged are willing to pay for at least 1 page/ week, he should be making over 2k from patreon alone. I wouldn't exactly call it bad.

And while I might agree that Thunt would possibly benefit from better marketing strategies, if history shows us one thing is that whatever Thunt needs to learn, its not how to be better at asking for money.

[RocketScientist]

I'm just going to point back up to Wears Hats's post above. Thunt rarely asks for money, and he has delivered everything he has promised us in exchange for said rarely requested money. It's getting a quite tiresome seeing people imply that isn't the case.

[mustache_man]

I'm just going to point back up to Wears Hats's post above. Thunt rarely asks for money, and he has delivered everything he has promised us in exchange for said rarely requested money. It's getting a quite tiresome seeing people imply that isn't the case.

You might want to get a little bit less defensive. I didn't accuse him of anything, and have no interest in going over the old discussion of whether or not he broke promises or whatever. What I was getting at, is that more than anything what he needs to learn is how to manage his time properly. I doubt even his most staunch defenders can make a case against that.

[Guus]

That's debateable. The point that he uses his fanbase to help someone close to him is crossing some boundaries in my book but hey. Like I said, I have no trouble pledging something for Goblins comic. The point that it exceeds (and is almost double) of what the larger companies ask for their comics, I draw the line. The minimal pledge is too high for what I get in return. The moment that pledges are more realistic, which means I pay for 20-25 pages about the same as I would pay for a regular comic, I would seriously consider pledging, because it's reasonable. 5 dollars means over $100,- per standard comic. That's not realistic if you ask me. $1,- means 20-25 dollars per comic (the comics I have have are 23 comics per issue, not counting ads, I don't know if that's a coincidence). The comics I pay for are between 10 to 15 euros per issue, and I can actually touch those, hold them in my hands. A webcomic that asks minimum pledge that is over those purchases is just not right in my book. If he adds a pledge of 50 cents, I would seriously consider it, because I do like the comic. Until then, I will see it as a slightly arrogant expectation of an internet artist. I like a lot of people on this forum, but no matter how good you folks know THunt, I don't know him, and I had one too many bad experiences in real life to look at his shenanigans and think "this is a guy I trust with my money and actually do with it what he says he will". I'm not saying THunt is a bad guy, I really don't think he is, I just feel like what he says and what he does don't add up. Everyone else can feel different about this, but that's the vibe I get. Until I see a decent and/or realistic business model, he shouldn't expect anything extra from me. The patreon, as of now, is not a decent business model in my eyes.

[RocketScientist]

What is debatable, Guus? What are you debating? If you don't want to give him money, then by all means, don't give him money. Problem solved.

@Mustache Man: If you had said that the first time, rather than making a vague, snarky implication that he doesn't need to learn how to ask for money, then I would have known what you meant.

[Guus]

I will seriously look at supporting the comic when it fits in my perception of what's reasonable. That's not what I'm talking about. The matter if THunt is able to ask for money well enough, that's what's debateable. I don't want to get into that because it's none of my concern. I am simply stating the boundaries of what I find acceptable and at which point I would seriously consider pledging to Goblins. Hopefully Tarol will see it and adjust his patreon, but hey, I'm just one guy with one opinion, so I'm not expecting anything.

[mustache_man]

@Mustache Man: If you had said that the first time, rather than making a vague, snarky implication that he doesn't need to learn how to ask for money, then I would have known what you meant.

He absolutely DOES NOT need to learn how to ask for money. I stand by that. I just didn't accuse him of anything. If he managed his time properly he would be in a much better situation. Getting paid for your work is not asking for money.

[Mec]

The extra work for the Patreon goals looks comparable to the extra work Thunt already does for the TopWebComics vote incentives. In particular, except for the post cards, all of it is "make more stuff and put it online somewhere", not "send thousands of physical things in the mail". Sounds good to me.

I'm interpreting mustache_man's opinion as: Thunt is already doing fine with Patreon, and even if he puts no more skill points in "online fundraising", he will be fine. If that's what he means, I agree with it.

I'm really happy about this because Thunt has gone from 2014 Implosion to 2015 Year of the Goblin. Thunt draws comics, fans read comics, Patreon collects money, Patreon sends 95% to Thunt. It's going to be beautiful!

[WearsHats]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Thunt should take the same measures as NIH. They're an extreme case. But what Thunt has now is at the other extreme. I think the right level is somewhere in the middle.

As for how much to pledge (if anything), that's obviously a personal decision. Patreon has a $1 minimum, though. (You can, however, make it $1/month.) But the idea here isn't that you're buying something. It's that you're becoming a patron of the arts, supporting a creator. If you'd rather go by the price for a book, you can just buy the PDFs as they come out. Whatever works for you.

For the record, he's not getting 95%. Patreon's FAQ explains that they keep a 5% commission off the top. But then there are credit card and PayPal transaction fees, which are another 4-5%. And then, for various reasons, a percentage of pledge payments will fail. "We're happy if a creator sees around $0.90 for every dollar!" Still, it's a lot more than he was getting before.

[RocketScientist]

Not knowing what his bills are like, or what his total income is, I don't think we can say whether he's doing fine, brilliant, or completely inadequately with the amount of Patreon donations. Maybe he's bringing in way more than he needs, maybe it's not even close. How would we know? I do know that he's not exactly in a cheap place to live. I also remember that we had to beg him, and to enlist Danielle's help before he'd run a donation drive for the house down payment. That doesn't scream "easily asks for money" or "properly values own work" to me.

Anyway, you* say time management, I say Concerta. Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.

*generic, non-specific "you"

[mustache_man]

Most people struggle with their finances (at least in some point of their lives). He's not a special snowflake in that regard. Sometimes this comes from being underpaid, sometimes it comes from making poor decisions and sometimes from things beyond our control. I'm not going to tell him how to live his life. I think he's had enough of that in this forum and it never worked. He's a grown man and he has a wife. I'm going to assume that between them both they can make mature decisions on what they need to make a living.

And what exactly would be middle ground in this anyway? You either make a threat (The comic will be over if I don't get this much money!) or you don't (I suppose he can ask for half the ransom). He can ask for whatever he thinks his work is worth. If his fanbase agrees he'll get the money. It's not that complicated (It's not really easy, but it is simple). If he can keep a work pace that allows him to recover and maintain his mental health, as well as both increase and sustain his readership, he should do fine. He's the one that has to decide what kind of schedule (if any) he wants or needs to keep and stick to it. Asking for large amounts without allowing people to pledge the minimum would alienate a lot of people that want to help but can or won't give more.

[WearsHats]

Thunt: I will continue making the comic the same as I would otherwise, but if you want to support me I would really appreciate it.

NIH: If we don't make money on this comic, we won't be able to afford to keep doing it. If you don't give us money, we're ending the comic.

There is a middle ground between those approaches, but that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is this:

Thunt: One tweet at an odd hour mentioning that he has a Patreon account, one blog post at the bottom of the comic page.

NIH: Daily tweets from multiple accounts, giant banner ad at the top of the comic, highlighted text box below the banner ad, blog post at the bottom of the comic, etc.

If not for the account having been linked on the forums, I wouldn't know that Thunt had a Patreon at all. I'd have missed the tweet and, while I check the comic page daily, I don't often scroll all the way down to the blog. Maybe it's just that he wants to post a new page and finish the video before he starts making a bigger deal of it, but right now he's barely advertised it at all.