Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

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Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Sessine » Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:53 am

I know we're going to want to talk about Thunt's blog post, so here's a thread to do it in.

My two cents? Kickstarter projects always carry a risk. Startup business ventures fail more often than they succeed. Love and enthusiasm for an idea often don't translate into a completed project.

I am not going to make a Twitter account, not even for this. So this is the best way I can think of to tell Thunt, "Relax. DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ON MY ACCOUNT! If you want to work to make G:AR a reality, that's cool, that's admirable of you, I will applaud. And if I turn out to get something for my money after all, bonus! But please, please, please do not stress out over this. And don't spend money you can't afford! I want you happy and healthy, and I want the rest of the Goblins story, a whole lot more than I want a game!"
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby LAYF » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:05 am

Yea... This is sad... But OTOH!!!

The product, once done, will be much more THunt than before....

I support this decision from him... I just hope it will not lead to to much stress....
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby sixgunbuddyguy » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:07 am

Isn't legal action available against this evertide guy? i mean accepting almost 200k and disappearing sounds pretty fraudulent to me, and i think there have been cases before...
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Aegis J Hyena » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:34 am

sixgunbuddyguy wrote:Isn't legal action available against this evertide guy? i mean accepting almost 200k and disappearing sounds pretty fraudulent to me, and i think there have been cases before...


They need to catch him first. And given the way it is sounding, I think he -did- pull a robbery and cast a Teleport to escape (hell, maybe a Plane Shift to another country, I don't know.)

Mad props to you for trying to make things right, Thunt, but it's an awful lot of work on top of the comic. Maybe 3 times a week you can work on comic updates, two days a week on G:AR?

EDIT: No need to buy that simulator with your own money, Thunt. Give me your Steam name and I will gift it to you.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Sessine » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:36 am

Speaking as someone who has seen a lot of small business ventures go belly up... there may be no fraud involved. Just piss-poor business judgement.

Most likely nobody's run off with a big wad of money. I mean, if there was actual fraud involved, it probably wouldn't have dragged on so long. I'm guessing most of the money was spent way too lavishly at the beginning, back when it looked like more than enough to do everything. Why not get a decent office, and desks, and computer equipment, and hey, hire some help to handle the things you're not so good at while you concentrate on game design? Say, five people at $30,000 a year, that's barely a living wage. They could afford that, couldn't they?

Well, but when there's outgo and no income, every company is going to run out of money. Then the game design takes longer than you'd thought, and hell, now you've made people wait, so it has to be perfect... and other people are leaving... until you're clinging to hope by your fingernails, and then finally even you have to admit that it's not going to happen. So, well. The right thing to do in that case is to stand up and admit to everyone that it's failed. But that takes a hell of a lot of nerve.

I'd say there's at most a 5% chance there was any intentional fraud. Fear of being mobbed by angry Kickstarter supporters -- or sued by Thunt -- seems to me to be a very, very likely explanation for the current silence.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby WearsHats » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:00 am

Like I said in the thread about the game over in the Community forum, I met Richard and emailed with him. He seemed like a good, honest guy who was doing his best. But he was in over his head. He said he put everything he had into the company. Moved back into his parents' house, didn't take a salary for himself, etc. Even so, the Kickstarters turned out to be more work, expense, and involvement than he'd bargained for.

I wonder if the reason he disappeared is that he just couldn't admit it was too much. Or something like that. It'll be interesting to see if he responds now.

Meantime, Thunt is doing his best for everyone, even though he didn't get the Kickstarter money (just a small commission for doing the artwork). But that means more work, responsibility, and expense. Just what he needed. Not to mention that this hurts his reputation and his ability to make other projects work. Even though it's not his fault.

Well, I can still look forward to the game. Whenever it's ready.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby SpellsBedly » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:06 am

Does anyone have a link to the blog post? It's not showing in the usual place for me...
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby WearsHats » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:17 am

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The Oatmeal's comics on proper grammar, including how to use an apostrophe and some commonly confused/misspelled words

My thoughts on meditation - why it's important and how to do it

The Spoon Theory - a look at what it's like to have a chronic illness and have to budget your energy

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Rogbull » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:44 am

Well, this is a horrible situation. But atleast it once again shows that Tarol is a man of character, owning up to "his" mistakes and willing to do everything to make it right.

Now on the matter of Patreon ( which took up it's fair share of the blogpost ): I want to support, but not via this medium. I have no issue in you setting one up, but I hope you give us a different medium to donate as well. Because I personally don't want to fund that website/Sanfranny culture. (https://patreon.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/ar ... eon-s-cut-)

E-hugs,
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby stormboy » Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:24 am

I have been wondering about the whole Kickstarting thing. I had a feeling that Evertide had gone belly up... just based on the last update. I never blamed Thunt for it and I just figured that the game was gone.

It is too bad that this happened and the THunt needs to take it back. I hope it doesn't become too much of a burden...

That said, I always liked the idea of the game as a creation by some gamers in the midst of a dungeon crawl anyway... Evertide seemed so dead set on making every detail perfect... that the game never got made.

Well THunt - I won't join twitter to contact you - but you have my support anyway. Good luck!

And THANKS!
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby LooksAndSmiles » Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:00 pm

Because I'm lazy to sound my own voice / add my opinion... QUOTE button, I choose you!

Sessine wrote:I am not going to make a Twitter account, not even for this. So this is the best way I can think of to tell Thunt, "Relax. DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ON MY ACCOUNT! If you want to work to make G:AR a reality, that's cool, that's admirable of you, I will applaud. And if I turn out to get something for my money after all, bonus! But please, please, please do not stress out over this. And don't spend money you can't afford! I want you happy and healthy, and I want the rest of the Goblins story, a whole lot more than I want a game!"


I guess I will write him an email anyway, even though he prefers twitter. Whatever. It's not that big of a deal as he makes it sound. Well, not for me anyway.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby KStolp » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:09 pm

Its Sad that this is the way that the Kickstarter is ending by the looks of it, (i put my money like most of you i am sure did) i am going to borrow some one else words here.
Sessine wrote:"Relax. DO NOT FEEL GUILTY ON MY ACCOUNT! If you want to work to make G:AR a reality, that's cool, that's admirable of you, I will applaud. And if I turn out to get something for my money after all, bonus! But please, please, please do not stress out over this. And don't spend money you can't afford! I want you happy and healthy, and I want the rest of the Goblins story, a whole lot more than I want a game!"


I would love to help make G:AR online a thing, but i dont think "Tabletop Simulator" from steam is the best way.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby TrueFederalist » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:03 am

stormboy wrote:That said, I always liked the idea of the game as a creation by some gamers in the midst of a dungeon crawl anyway... Evertide seemed so dead set on making every detail perfect... that the game never got made.


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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Liesmith » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:13 am

Man, this is just a terrible situation all around. I don't know anything about small businesses, but Sessine's hypothesis has a ring of truth to it. It's like the old saying "cock-up before conspiracy". I feel for everyone involved. I just wrote Tarol an email saying I wanted to waive my backer rewards...I don't like the idea of him spending money to make it right when it's not his fault that things fell through.

I had a similar situation right after I got out of the military and got my first civilian job. I had just started putting away some savings when I suddenly had to give it all to my grandmother because another family member had conned her into cosigning on a car loan (then outright forged her signature on a second loan), and just left her with a mountain of debt. She had a fixed income and was actually going without groceries just to afford the bank payments. When she finally hit a breaking point, she called me for help (she would never ask for money from a family member). I had to make her promise to never pay me back, because she wasn't the one who'd wronged.

In comparison, waiving my piddly $37 reward tier probably won't help at all, but at least I won't make the situation worse.

On a side note:
Tarol, did you ever flip off a fortuneteller? Graffiti a mummy? Use a cursed tiki idol as an ashtray?
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby TeaLovingDave » Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:33 am

Look on the bright side..... at least Richard has not posted a video of himself burning all the copies of the game and issued a rant about how anyone that participated in the Kickstarter was contributing to a corrupt economic system like a certain former webcomic artist did some time ago :p
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby CooksACarrot » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:20 pm

Wow, I hadn't heard that story, who was it?
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby DrinksBeer » Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:54 pm

Second update:

http://www.goblinscomic.org/lowtide-gar-second-update/

Sounds like Thunt is enjoying the challenge of completing G:AR. Good. If he's going to insist on finishing it, at least he can have fun in the process.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby WearsHats » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:00 pm

sixgunbuddyguy wrote:Isn't legal action available against this evertide guy? i mean accepting almost 200k and disappearing sounds pretty fraudulent to me, and i think there have been cases before...


Thunt's blog post says he's looking into options. But, in my inexpert opinion, it'll be difficult.

1. Kickstarter explicitly does not guarantee that projects will be completed or successful, even if funded. You're giving seed money for something in development, not buying a thing.

2. Evertide did do much of the development work. They made a playable prototype. One which they found needed more work, but they did get that far. You'd have to prove that the funds were misappropriated, and that could be difficult. And possibly expensive.

3. The contract had a clause about what would happen if Evertide failed to deliver a marketable game, and Thunt has invoked it. He gets full legal rights to everything they've done on it.

4. Thunt publicly said in his blog post that he bears some responsibility for not having properly vetted Evertide.

5. Thunt lives in Canada. Evertide is in the US. That could make things messy. And expensive.

6. As some else here said, if Evertide is in the financial trouble it seems to be, there may not be much to win even if the court rules in his favor.

Which isn't to say that it's impossible or that he shouldn't try. But, for all that this has hurt Thunt's business, I'm not sure what the prospects are.

And, since the update came in as I was writing this:

7. Thunt likes Richard and thinks he did his best. That's important, too.

Anyway, the update looks great. I'm glad to see things so positive! :)
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The Oatmeal's comics on proper grammar, including how to use an apostrophe and some commonly confused/misspelled words

My thoughts on meditation - why it's important and how to do it

The Spoon Theory - a look at what it's like to have a chronic illness and have to budget your energy

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby ShyferLoreweaver » Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:52 pm

I found him on Facebook. I'm currently debating the ethical portion of posting it here.

Pros:

Those who have been wronged by Evertide Games can attempt to get the story from Richard himself, and thus likely ending the drama surrounding this issue.

Cons:

I imagine many people will say very hurtful and perhaps even threatening things to him, given an easier way to contact him.

Thoughts?
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby CooksACarrot » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:22 pm

I probably wouldn't do it without THunt's ok, but it also seems like the guy isn't responding to facebook anyways.
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby randyowen1977 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:46 pm

Well i missed the Kickstarter at the time, and had forgotten all about it until now. Back then i was broke and i am not a big fan of card games.... now i am still broke but from Thunts newest update i want to buy it when he is done! Given the situation Thunt is handling this a lot better than he needs to, he could have just said that evertide is gone and the game is gone with it, sorry... makes me want to buy more merchandise....
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby WearsHats » Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:56 pm

ShyferLoreweaver wrote:I found him on Facebook. I'm currently debating the ethical portion of posting it here.

Pros:

Those who have been wronged by Evertide Games can attempt to get the story from Richard himself, and thus likely ending the drama surrounding this issue.

Cons:

I imagine many people will say very hurtful and perhaps even threatening things to him, given an easier way to contact him.

Thoughts?


I'd be afraid that people would go pile on him. We don't know what the situation is with Richard, and Thunt asked us not to hurt or badmouth him. He seemed pretty down when I had that email exchange with him months ago. Thunt has tried to contact him. The post is public. He's very likely aware of it. I don't know what more good would come of poking him on FB. Especially if, as Carrot mentioned, he's been ignoring contact attempts.
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The Oatmeal's comics on proper grammar, including how to use an apostrophe and some commonly confused/misspelled words

My thoughts on meditation - why it's important and how to do it

The Spoon Theory - a look at what it's like to have a chronic illness and have to budget your energy

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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby TeaLovingDave » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:35 pm

CooksACarrot wrote:Wow, I hadn't heard that story, who was it?


John Campbell, the former artist and writer of Pictures For Sad Children.

The story can be found here:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2014/02/kic ... to-donors/

Since this happened John has since deleted all trace of the comics from the internet.

The full diatribe referred to - and partially quoted - in the above news link can be found here:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/73 ... dren/posts
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby Sessine » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:08 pm

The line that leaped out at me was this:
I feel like I’m DMing again and it’s incredibly comfortable.

Thunt has creative control now, and it's making him happy. All right!

So, y'know... since giving out a copy of the reworked game to all backers is going to make him feel like he's done the right thing, I'm not going to tell him not to. I hope he buys from the printer in bulk and does the shipping himself. It won't cost him as much that way as it would cost each of us individually to re-buy the game. I also hope he pares out those extra flourishes that look fancy but won't do much (I'm looking at you, tablecloth, t-shirts, and character clings!), and includes only the pieces that are essential to make the game playable.

It's still going to cost him a whole lot of money. Where's it going to come from?

Well, I'd already written off my contribution months ago. It was going to be a gift to a friend anyway; I wouldn't have had anyone to play it with, and my whole reason for backing the Kickstarter was that Thunt was all excited and happy about it, so in a way it was a gift to him, too. I wouldn't feel right letting him foot the bill for it now.

If he wants to send me a reworked, much better game, I can't stop him.

But he's going to put up a Patreon. I can pay for it that way, and he can't stop me! Muahahahahaha!
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Re: Well, shit... (G:AR Kickstarter)

Postby ForgetsOldName » Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:38 pm

This is actually a hot legal issue right now, and something of a grey area.

If Evertide had been selling stock in a company, then if the company needs to shut down, its assets are liquidated, creditors are paid off, and what's left (usually nothing) is distributed among the stockholders. However the question of whether Kickstarters are stock sales has not been resolved. Certainly there's no stock certificates or registration with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Once the game is completed the backers have no interest in the company's other projects. Likewise it doesn't seem to be a partnership as backers don't get a share of the profits. The closest legal model would be a contract. You give him $$ and he is required to give you a CCG. If the company doesn't perform, you are entitled to be made whole.

If it's not a stock sale, then the company has failed to perform a contract and the owner of the company may be liable. He may lose his house, car, and all his possessions. It would depend on whether Evertide is a corporation, a partnership, or just what this guy Richard calls himself.
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