The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

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Amara
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Amara » Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:39 am

Okay, I know 3.5 had the "willingly commit an evil act" part of the line, so I checked 3.0 to see if its wording had been changed in 3.5. Nope.
Paladin Code of Conduct wrote:A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all special class abilities if she ever willingly commits an act of evil. Additionally, a paladinÔÇÖs code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, etc.), help those who need help (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those that harm or threaten innocents
Dominate person would indeed let you force a character to use any of their abilities, and so long as you are not forcing them to harm themselves and they've failed their will save, I suppose that would work perfectly fine.
And by that definition, they're not willingly committing an evil act, so technically they're not violating the as written code of conduct...
Dominate Person wrote:Subjects resist this control, and those forced to take actions against their nature receive a new saving throw with a bonus of +1 to +4, depending on the type of action required. Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out. Once control is established, the range at which it can be exercised is unlimited, as long as you and the subject are on the same plane. You need not see the subject to control it
Of course, that's... a lot of saving throws given freely.


I'm...sure everything I just said has been re-said repeatedly. Oops.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Lurks_In_Shadows » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:27 am

Given the above, that would imply for this to work that: 1) the dominating creature to be extremely powerful (i.e. akin to demonic possession) and/or Kore is not entirely sane and has adopted an attitude rather like NOMAD from Star Trek OS (Sterilize the imperfect). This may have been discussed ad nauseam somewhere, and if it has, I apologize.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Amara » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:09 am

I believe there are either demons or devils with supernatural abilities akin to dominate person, and possession does exist in 3.0, so demonic possession certainly isn't out of the question.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Dagon » Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:35 pm

First time poster. I had to sign to say this:

First: I have crapped my pants.

Second: I think Lore is Forgath's version from that universe where paladins keep their powers even if they change alignment. I also think he started being Lawful Good, but REALLY vain, and copied the evil-containment system of the Axe of Prissan (using a paladin's soul to balance the evil of the demon), turning himself into a vessel of evil souls, expecting the lawful-goodness of his soul to keep those evil spirits contained.

It didn't work, of course, and he just became a psycho who believes himself righteous and just.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Sidewaysgts » Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:54 pm

Dagon wrote:Second: I think Lore is Forgath's version from that universe where paladins keep their powers even if they change alignment. I also think he started being Lawful Good, but REALLY vain, and copied the evil-containment system of the Axe of Prissan (using a paladin's soul to balance the evil of the demon), turning himself into a vessel of evil souls, expecting the lawful-goodness of his soul to keep those evil spirits contained.

It didn't work, of course, and he just became a psycho who believes himself righteous and just.
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by kida » Sun Nov 02, 2014 9:40 pm

The permanent link on the first post in not correct anymore, you should replace it with http://www.goblinscomic.org/10242014/

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Krulle » Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:05 am

It's a pity that THunt replaced the semi-finished page though.
Often he leaves previous versions be, but
http://www.goblinscomic.org/comics/20141008.jpg
http://www.goblinscomic.org/comics/20141024.jpg
are both the same image...
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by WearsHats » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:33 am

kida wrote:The permanent link on the first post in not correct anymore, you should replace it with http://www.goblinscomic.org/10242014/
Good catch. Thanks for letting me know.
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by JustRight » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:17 am

Krulle wrote:I don't think he ever did.
He will continue to keep the droplets on the general,correct space, just that the exact position will be less exact.

Imdon't mind, as drops flow anyway, so they should be a slightly different positions evrytime anyway...

On the general topic of depicting bleeding / splatter, if realism is the goal, unless an artery is severed and blood has a clear path to the surface, most of the leakage will be under the armor or soaking into the clothing, running down the body gravity-driven vs. capillary action driven, dependent on rate of flow. Head and extremity wounds bleed more visibly than body wounds. Most theatrical bleeding is made visible for audience benefit rather than reflect the actual physics of bleeding which can allow quite a lot of bleeding to go unnoticed. The most extreme bleeding for effect is found in the samurai movie genre where firehose-style spraying was common. THunt is most often midway between this extreme and actual real life experience. It is very visually entertaining, but it also could be done with some dramatic effects if somehow it could be shown how more damage was actually done than was at first visibly apparent, which is often the case with penetrating trauma.

From my medical perspective.

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Post by Nerre » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:10 pm

knows-little wrote:i knew it he didnt just collect souls in his ime they all became pieces of him, now i wonder is that klick we see as forgath goes over is that junior?
I am not sure. If i remember it correctly, Juniors IME/color was green, and normally Thunt sticks to that. Maybe more beings of Klick's race are in this realm? Or did he change his IME/color according to those he devoured and used to grow?
:zzz:

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Mon Nov 03, 2014 1:15 pm

Yeah, Junior's IME is green. And yes, there are more beings of Klick's race in this realm. Biscuit said that the Cloudpine Mountains were full of them.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by algesan » Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:00 pm

YardMeat wrote:
algesan wrote:I never got so far as 3.0/3.5, but as you note, the stuff on alignment hasn't changed much...except maybe this "divine spirit of good" stuff.
I'm pretty sure good was an objective force in its own right even in previous editions, but I could be wrong. I don't know whether this force was the source of paladin powers or not back then.
Ugh, I'd have to dig out my books from a box somewhere. I know only humans were allowed to be paladins at first, not sure when that changed officially, but still saw very few nonhuman paladins as PCs. NPCs, another story, but paladins as "holy warriors" drew their powers from the same source as the clerics and a "Paladin of Odin" had to deal with Odin's issues...like using a spear and one for Thor, a hammer. Which introduced not only the trivial CE antipaladin (who should really be LE, but forget that), but various paladins of different alignments. I only went for the Lawful variants becaue what "paladin" stands for requires a structured society IMO.

Deity driven paladins put a different twist on the subject of good & evil, or even how lawful is lawful.
(Another rabbit trail...I always found it annoying there was no "I do what I do when I do it because I feel like it" alignment that doesn't have to worry about alignment issues.
I hadn't played 4th ed yet, but I'm glad to hear there is an "unaligned" option now.
We used to simply call it Amoral Neutral and just ignored the negative connotations with "amoral". I've gotten older and I don't think I'd allow an "unaligned" option now because consistent worldview is critical to sanity. I just wouldn't apply the alignment change penalties for "normal" PCs unless they kept crossing the line in a big way.

Occasionally I might get in a D&D game, but usually we use Hero System with the heroic rules in place.
The example wasn't intended to be of a paladin purposefully slaughtering goblin babes, but simply having the babes die as collateral damage as part of the raid to suppress the goblins,
I was referring to this, which sounded like willful and deliberate slaughter (my emphasis).:
Yeah, it did.
Combining them means there is no "sin" for a paladin to slaughter goblin babies that had not yet harmed anyone because for the greater good, you have to kill the nits to keep the number of lice down later.
It sounded like you were talking about slaughtering goblin babies for the greater good, but maybe you were talking about them being accidental collateral damage in the paladin's pursuit of the greater good against the adult goblins.
In a normal situation, the collateral damage issue really doesn't come up except anachronistically. Medieval level societies and even relatively modern ones simply didn't care about collateral damage as long as it wasn't gratuitous. So, no lining up babies and butchering them, but if the enemy is holed up strongly and the choices are nuking the place or wasting your troops, you nuke it. Doesn't matter if it is high explosives or fireballs. FWIW, that is what is provided for in the various Geneva conventions, since combatants that hide among "innocents" are the ones legally responsible for the deaths of such innocents in any combat action. Moral is another issue, but again, the worry about collateral damage really is a postmodern concern.
which, as a human paladin, may be regrettable, but not "evil" from the LG PoV.
Knowingly and willingly killing an innocent (regardless of race) based on the fallible prediction that they might become non-innocent in the future is most definitely "'evil' from the LG PoV." Even if it were not part of the rules--which it is--we know that it is part of Thunt's world. Characters within the setting have told us so. We've heard it from YAB, Thaco and Big Ears.
See above. if it isn't deliberate and off hand, it is just luck, fate, choices of Deity, etc.
The issue between the paladin & fighter characters was they were both following the same standards of behavior, but applying a different temporal viewpoint to the same situations. Which produced wildly diverse behavioral patterns and were based on purely subjective decisions on applying the time factor in their decisions.
The moment that the paladin knowingly and willingly took innocent life, his paladinhood should have been stripped from him. If he were unrepentant about it, his LG alignment should have been taken away as well. Of course, the GM is free to come up with his own house rules where paladins are free to take innocent life, even when it is avoidable. Personally, I don't even see the point of having paladins or alignments if a GM is going to run the game that way.
It is evil to harm the prisoner without means to resist. Psychological trauma can be as damaging as physical trauma. So even the threat of torture and violence was "evil". True, the existential viewpoint was (and is) anachronistic as I noted above, but it was fun to do at the time, most probably because it was contrasting a more postmodern view with older ones.
Kore would be stuck in the "very, very long term" mode
He's not only working in the very, very long term, he's working in "maybe" term by killing people who could potentially become evil, and he is working in the "completely insane" term by planning to kill an entire clan of dwarves based solely on the fact that one of them was orphaned and discovered by monsters and the other had the audacity to fight back after being shot. And let's not forget that he has tried to kill a fellow paladin.
Yep, because since everyone has the potential to fall... Although, that wouldn't be a problem in a game with deity (or alignment) driven paladins. A dwarf paladin could slaughter all the goblin paladins he wanted to (and vice versa) because they were racial enemies, which generally means their deities are enemies, so it would be a "holy" slaughter of high significance since it takes down a high status "player" on the other side.
..and if we add in some curse, then yes, he could probably retain his paladinhood.
If the curse has somehow blinded him so that, when he kills innocents, he is not doing so willingly or knowingly, then I agree.
Oh...the penance I'd make him do though...
"The good news, since you were under a curse, is that I have for you these potions of long life."
"The bad news, since you did a lot of real bad things under that curse, you will be pretty much permanently under a divine geas working the stuff off."
(GM holds out hand for newly retired character's sheet.)

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by RocketScientist » Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:54 pm

algesan wrote:
YardMeat wrote:
algesan wrote:I never got so far as 3.0/3.5, but as you note, the stuff on alignment hasn't changed much...except maybe this "divine spirit of good" stuff.
I'm pretty sure good was an objective force in its own right even in previous editions, but I could be wrong. I don't know whether this force was the source of paladin powers or not back then.
Ugh, I'd have to dig out my books from a box somewhere. I know only humans were allowed to be paladins at first, not sure when that changed officially, but still saw very few nonhuman paladins as PCs. NPCs, another story, but paladins as "holy warriors" drew their powers from the same source as the clerics and a "Paladin of Odin" had to deal with Odin's issues...like using a spear and one for Thor, a hammer. Which introduced not only the trivial CE antipaladin (who should really be LE, but forget that), but various paladins of different alignments. I only went for the Lawful variants becaue what "paladin" stands for requires a structured society IMO.

Deity driven paladins put a different twist on the subject of good & evil, or even how lawful is lawful.
My books were just on the other side of my room, so...

In the PHB for 1st Edition AD&D it doesn't say anything about paladins needing a deity. They're a (human only) subclass of fighter, and if they fall, they turn permanently into a regular fighter. So I would assume some sort of unspoken force of good.

In the 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana, paladins are a subclass of cavaliers. Cavaliers and paladins "must be in service to some deity, noble, order, or special cause." Paladins only serve lawful good causes, orders, etc. for obvious reasons. Cavaliers and paladins can be human, half-elven, or elven (as long as they are gray, dark, or high elven). Again, it doesn't specify who decides whether they fall, but since they have other options to serve besides just deities, I would imagine that it's independent of any god(s).

I don't have 2nd Ed, so I can't help you there. Hope that helps for 1st ed, though. :)

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by algesan » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:52 am

RocketScientist wrote:My books were just on the other side of my room, so...

In the PHB for 1st Edition AD&D it doesn't say anything about paladins needing a deity. They're a (human only) subclass of fighter, and if they fall, they turn permanently into a regular fighter. So I would assume some sort of unspoken force of good.

In the 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana, paladins are a subclass of cavaliers. Cavaliers and paladins "must be in service to some deity, noble, order, or special cause." Paladins only serve lawful good causes, orders, etc. for obvious reasons. Cavaliers and paladins can be human, half-elven, or elven (as long as they are gray, dark, or high elven). Again, it doesn't specify who decides whether they fall, but since they have other options to serve besides just deities, I would imagine that it's independent of any god(s).

I don't have 2nd Ed, so I can't help you there. Hope that helps for 1st ed, though. :)
Thanks, that does. I'm going to end up having to dig up some of the other books and check them out, I'm getting a bee in my bonnet about it concerning where I picked up some of these concepts. I understand how "we" (as in guys I've gamed with since the late 70s, early 80s) have kept some of these concepts, we simply pass them amongst ourselves and along to younger members as they come into the group.

Unfortunately, all my early edition Dragons got destroyed in the 90s, so if it came from there, I won't find it. I could ask my first GM about it, I happened to run across him a couple of years ago...heh, but to put some perspective on that subject, Greyhawk was new, he is about a decade older than me...which means he will be eligible for Social Security any year now...

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:34 am

Just to expand, I picked up my old Advanced Dungeons & Dragons PHB and gave it a look. One thing I found curious is that, if a paladin ever commits a chaotic act, she (I'm just going to use "she" as my random pronoun, since I typically see "he" instead) must seek penance; however, if she ever commits an evil act, there is no way she can ever regain paladinhood. I thought the weight that good had over law was interesting.

Anyway, the description of the class clearly focuses on a dedication to law and good and an accountability to law and good. The only mention of religion at all in the class description is that a paladin must donate some of her wealth to the charitable lawful good religious institution of her choosing. There is no indication that the paladin is beholden to such an institution or that she even has to stick with the same one. In fact, the book says that part of the reason for this donation is just to make sure that the paladin leads a modest life, keeping only the wealth that she needs, and the act seems to be more one of civic duty and personal virtue than religious devotion. More importantly, although a paladin can lose her abilities by acting in a way that contradicts her lawful neutral alignment, there is nothing in the book about paladins losing their abilities because of offending their deity, unlike clerics.

The book doesn't say where paladin spells come from, but it does say that both druids and clerics get their spells from deities, which I also found odd. Anyway, I guess none of that really matters. In 3.5, which Thuntverse is based on, druids get their abilities from nature, paladins get their abilities from good/law and even clerics can forgo devotion to a deity in favor of a non-theistic cause.

On a side note, algesan, I have to disagree about a concern for collateral damage being a purely postmodern concern--the famous Prince Ashoka comes to mind--but keep in mind that D&D is hardly based on a historical vision of the Middle Ages. It is loosely based on a fantasy re-imagining of a Romance-era re-imagining of an anachronistic blend of Medieval, Renaissance and Classical Europe and other times and areas.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by algesan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:51 pm

As in Emperor Ashoka, known as The Fierce until after the Kalinga war? I still don't see where he fits in the idea of collateral damage being a serious problem.

All the loosely based reimaginings have been done in a postmodern culture. I'd simply classify it more as a comic book with swords & sorcery instead of superpowers, but still, the original eras mentioned (and for centuries after them), collateral damage was simply one of the Bad Things (TM) that happen in war. It is to be deplored, but stuff happens.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Mon Nov 10, 2014 8:18 pm

algesan wrote:As in Emperor Ashoka, known as The Fierce until after the Kalinga war?
Yes, and having witnessed the vicious nature of the collateral damage of that war, his attitude towards such violence changed dramatically.
I still don't see where he fits in the idea of collateral damage being a serious problem.
You claimed that the idea of collateral damage being a serious problem is strictly a postmodern concern. Prince Ashoka is an example of someone who contradicts that theory. He did not approach collateral damage with the attitude that you claim was universal before the postmodern era.

Jainism, early forms of Buddhism and several iterations of Hinduism abhor all forms of violence, with certain exceptions for self defense. There were also early Christian pacifists and early Muslims who believed that no harm should come to noncombatants. Hell, Jains can not/could not even accept the collateral damage of insects stepped on during a walk or slapped in reaction to painful bites. So no, abhorrence of collateral damage is not purely a postmodern concern.
All the loosely based reimaginings have been done in a postmodern culture. I'd simply classify it more as a comic book with swords & sorcery instead of superpowers, but still, the original eras mentioned (and for centuries after them), collateral damage was simply one of the Bad Things (TM) that happen in war. It is to be deplored, but stuff happens.
We really should take this to a separate thread, since it has little to do with the discussion at hand. If you'd like to continue it in the Controversy! subforum, I'd be happy to do so there. If we are to continue it there, however, I do ask that you provide sources for your claims in the opening post.

In 3rd ed D&D, however, and in Thuntverse, good involves protecting the innocent, regardless of their race. There is no exception in the core rules for killing the innocent because they might become evil in the future. Kore doesn't just unintentionally kill innocents as collateral damage. He intentionally targets them. He deliberately kills blind, harmless geriatrics and shivering orphans. This is incompatible with the core rules of 3.5 and, I would argue, incompatible with any meaningful definition of the word "good."

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Glemp » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:23 am

I know it's been a while, but since it relates to Kore's face...there is somewhere else something like it turns up: http://envyshrine.webs.com/FMAB_Envy_Monster.jpg

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Davis8488 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:05 am

I hope the first to suggest the idea in this thread will not be upset that I didn't re-read 12 pages to find their comment, but I like the aforementioned idea of Kore being some sort of sin eater.

His curse could be that the souls of those he kills are attached to him, and will eventually be redeemed at the sacrifice of his own.

While the average being would see both eternal damnation (we know Thuntverse Hell exists, and that demons torture souls there) and being attached to the souls of those you killed as a curse, a paladin might be willing to face Hell, in order to save others from experiencing it, and consider such an opportunity for self-sacrifice to be a blessing.

Perhaps his mission isn't about eradicating any evil he finds, but binding as many souls as might need it to his sacrifice, before his final act.

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Slightly off topic: The green mouth that appears to be eating the blog post reminds me far too much of Jr...
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:35 am

Davis8488 wrote:I hope the first to suggest the idea in this thread will not be upset that I didn't re-read 12 pages to find their comment, but I like the aforementioned idea of Kore being some sort of sin eater.

His curse could be that the souls of those he kills are attached to him, and will eventually be redeemed at the sacrifice of his own.

While the average being would see both eternal damnation (we know Thuntverse Hell exists, and that demons torture souls there) and being attached to the souls of those you killed as a curse, a paladin might be willing to face Hell, in order to save others from experiencing it, and consider such an opportunity for self-sacrifice to be a blessing.

Perhaps his mission isn't about eradicating any evil he finds, but binding as many souls as might need it to his sacrifice, before his final act.
I think the main problem with that, aside from having to interpret good and the paladin code rather loosely in order for Kore to maintain his powers, is that it goes against what we have already been told about Kore in the comic. His own words and the words of others (I can't find where Thaco talks about him in the archive, but it is there somewhere) lead us to the conclusion that his mission is, in fact, about eradicating any evil he finds. Every time someone has said something about Kore's motivations, including Kore himself, it has been the eradication of evil.

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Slightly off topic: The green mouth that appears to be eating the blog post reminds me far too much of Jr...
I thought the same thing! At the risk of bringing up the prophecy again, it also looks rather serpentine. I've noticed in the archives, though, that the same image is silver/grey instead of Junior-green. I'm not sure what to make of it.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by Davis8488 » Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:09 pm

YardMeat wrote: Every time someone has said something about Kore's motivations, including Kore himself, it has been the eradication of evil.

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You raise good points.

I can't help but think though that the spirits Kore has bound to him have something to do with his long life and his ability to somehow affect the Spirit bound in the Axe of Prissan, either to eradicate, banish, or better imprison.
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by BuildsLegos » Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:19 pm

Dwarves have always lived for several hundred years, at least in Lord of the Rings and Dragon Age. Thunt even said on the webcam that his dwarves never stop growing, hence Kore's massive frame.
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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Mon Dec 22, 2014 9:27 pm

Davis8488 wrote:
You raise good points.

I can't help but think though that the spirits Kore has bound to him have something to do with his long life and his ability to somehow affect the Spirit bound in the Axe of Prissan, either to eradicate, banish, or better imprison.
I definitely think his history is tied with the Axe. Both of them seem to act as prisons for souls, so maybe Kore was a prototype that failed and was replaced by the Axe.

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by SpellsBedly » Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:10 am

Davis8488 wrote:His curse could be that the souls of those he kills are attached to him, and will eventually be redeemed at the sacrifice of his own.
That's a pretty clever idea. He gets to stay a paladin while killing good people because he's not killing them, he's purifying them of all evil. It might be something in that direction.

But wouldn't he be much more successful if he was more willing to tell people this and work with them instead of calling everyone a monster and mowing people down left and right? Maybe he himself doesn't understand how his curse works...

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Re: The face of Kore! Oct 8, 2014 (Working link posted.)

Post by YardMeat » Tue Dec 23, 2014 8:30 am

SpellsBedly wrote:That's a pretty clever idea. He gets to stay a paladin while killing good people because he's not killing them, he's purifying them of all evil.
. . . but he is killing them. The fact that there is an afterlife in this setting doesn't change the fact that he is killing people. And he isn't just killing evil creatures. He is killing the innocent as well, just in case they might become evil one day. By that logic, any paladin in D&D could excuse mass infanticide, just slaughtering every baby he sees, just for the sake of killing them while they are still innocent and offering them a better chance at an afterlife. Plus, let's not forget that he has attempted to kill other paladins, and he has engaged in torture as well.

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