Cavemen - Survival of the Fittest

[nikohl]

The caves are visually depicted by those three holes in the wall yes, but the caves aren't actually only just "three holes in the wall" - they'll be described properly at the start if you do start there, or if you explore them later. None of the three options are super easy, they'll all come with their own challenges in setting up a home there. And I guess you all could relocate the village later on if you chose to.

[BadgeAddict]

Am I seeing it correctly when I say the caves are the three holes in the wall? Because then I would agree with Borys with fucking the voting system up and say plains!

Or just stick to the caves as I originally wanted but forgot to write in my post.

You'll need to use your imagination to see the caves in a better light.

The map is simply a basic guide to how it is after all.

[CroverusRaven]

Forest is my vote because we can actually utilize the wood from trees and there would be plenty of food and such. Caves seems like way too harsh an environment to start out in.

[Theis2]

Am I seeing it correctly when I say the caves are the three holes in the wall? Because then I would agree with Borys with fucking the voting system up and say plains!

Or just stick to the caves as I originally wanted but forgot to write in my post.

You'll need to use your imagination to see the caves in a better light.

The map is simply a basic guide to how it is after all.

Yeah I thought so, but I just wanted to show my amazing humor! (the amazing part is that it's either awesome or horrible, hardly any inbetween the two.. )
I just wanted to be completely sure that it was there
Is the map properly proportionated with the distances or could the caves be closer to the waterfalls than the small forest area below them? (I guess it is, but might as well go all the way with questioning the map ) Just because I can't create a simple map like that..

What kind of temperature zone are we living in though? Temperate, arctic, tropic or something else?
And Croverus, it seems like we have a small forest close nearby the caves.

[CroverusRaven]

Oh, I just realized we have a map.I'll change my vote to caves.

[nikohl]

Climate: Temperate. Think England/France. Cold winters, warm summers, but not ever "omg -40" or "aaargh +40" like in some more extreme parts of the world. Most of the year it's comfortable/cool but nights are usually chilly, and there's quite a bit of rain. There will be snow in the coldest months and it'll probably be uncomfortably sticky at the height of summer.

Similarly, the forest is not jungle-y, more deciduous trees with the occasional evergreen dotted about, so the leaves will almost all go in Winter.

The map is not perfectly proportioned (eg it all looks flat but it isn't completely - there are small bumps in the landscape) but I'd say the trees and waterfall are both about an hour's walk? Badge will confirm, it's his drawing after all.

[GathersIngredients]

Cool map.
So erm, if forest wins, will it be the one on the right-upper side of the map (possibly north-west, there is no wind rose...) or the little circular wooden area in the middle of the map, closer to the river?



So. XY summer or XY winters means that our char was born closer to summer/winter, or what is the difference there? (If I had to hazard a guess, I would figure that back then most people were probably born in fall. Because cuddling against the winter cold + 9 months. OTOH, having an extra mouth to feed through the winter is probably not ideal... Hrm.)

Also, how high is life expectancy within the people of the tribe? Iirc, in the stone-ages, people that lived to see their thirties were considered REALLY old.

Will post Min's age after getting my questions answered, thank you kindly in advance.

[Nerre]

Changed the char a bit according to the GMs suggestion, hope you like it. Just edited my first post.

The voting for a starting locations means we got no home yet, or is this only for our individual chars? As a honey climber, I would prefer the little forst close to the caves.

[nikohl]

The starting forest is the smaller one. The large forest in the top corner of the map is basically the edge of how far you can 'see' from the bottom part of the map - the whole thing is an area of a valley. There are no homes yet, your tribe has basically just arrived at this map area as they are currently homeless.

As for age: I think maybe 40-45 is the upper age limit in our caveman times - and you're probably considered 'adult' at 15 or 16, but would be working before then. I know it would normally be a bit younger but I'm not too comfortable with roleplaying or writing about 13/14year olds becoming parents as would probably have been normal in those times, so we're fudging the ages a little bit

I'm not sure whether Badge had a plan re: summer/winter births having an effect so I'll leave that to him to answer.

[Nerre]

According to what I could find out ~40 is correct for a Neandertal, similar for the other humans. There was no concept of adulthood back then, only sexual maturity and maybe a test that officially declared you a man or woman, not a child anymore, which was around 11-12 years. This is still up to date, if you look at the newspaper scandal reports about very young parents nowadays. Back then as well as now, this got nothing to do with paedophilia, it is just biology. No reason to be ashamed to do biologically and historically correct roleplay. If some people still get children at such a young age today, I got no problem with roleplaying it for cavemen (for which it was no scandal, but normal).
But if you feel better, feel free to choose 13/14 as an age of adulthood that comforts you.

[BadgeAddict]

According to what I could find out ~40 is correct for a Neandertal, similar for the other humans. There was no concept of adulthood back then, only sexual maturity and maybe a test that officially declared you a man or woman, not a child anymore, which was around 11-12 years. This is still up to date, if you look at the newspaper scandal reports about very young parents nowadays. Back then as well as now, this got nothing to do with paedophilia, it is just biology. No reason to be ashamed to do biologically and historically correct roleplay. If some people still get children at such a young age today, I got no problem with roleplaying it for cavemen (for which it was no scandal, but normal).
But if you feel better, feel free to choose 13/14 as an age of adulthood that comforts you.

I appreciate your research however you will find as the game continues that we wont be following any set time period. The game is cavemen not cro-magnam. (Or whatever)

We are making this game to be fun not politically correct. So I would ask that you allow us to make our mistakes unless something is horribly wrong. And above sounds like a minor issue. Im not saying this with any ill will towards you nerre. But giving us options on what we would like to pick as starting ages is you being in control.

[Nerre]

Nah, that was not ment as giving you options or asking you to do something. You can do whatever you want with the game settings, as it is your game. This was not intended as more than smalltalk. Maybe I was in the controversy forum too long, cause the last sentence says something differently than intended, now that I read it again. Should only be saying something like "it's up to you, especially if it makes you feel better.". Sorry.

[BadgeAddict]

haha, indeed...this is why i haven't been into the controversy forum since the old forum died. Too much for me to handle, no worries Nerre.

[BeanDip]

Sorry about the wait Badge and Nikohl, last few days have been very busy and my time on the forums have been minimal. Character coming up and things should be slowing down again now so I'll be able to play the game.

Forest is my vote but just out of curiosity, what kind of climate is it? An alpine forest will be different than a rainforest or a warm coastal forest, and each would need have some skills important to them which I could give my caveman. Fishing isn't as useful or important in a cold, mountainous climate as it is a coastal climate, for instance.

I'd vote rainforest if we vote for climate (or kind of forest) but I don't even know that we are so...

[nikohl]

When I visualise the forest, I visualise the kind we have here in the UK because that's kind of how I view the climate as well. So mostly deciduous trees, with some evergreen/alpine breeds dotted in there. A good variety of tree 'breeds' so that there's no "...but X animal wouldn't be on X tree?" confusion later on.

Here's a picture of the kind of thing I'd visualised. Good tall trees, but also a reasonable amount of undergrowth and a fair amount of fallen branches that have been colonised by plants, insects, fungi and so on. Lots of leaf litter on the floor.



The edge of the forest would have younger, thinner trees and more bushes/plants:



Also at the edges of the forest, it spills out into basically plain grassland/bare dirt in places, with the odd tree and plenty of bushes. Rather than the forest just "ending".

[Aegis J Hyena]

Character Name: "Sniffly" Fengo (28 Summers)

Fengo's an older, wiser member of the tribe, the tribal shaman/"sorcerer", interpreting portents and omens. He's got a fetish for haphazardly wearing anything reptilian he comes across (shed snake skins on his toes and fingers, a lizard skull necklace, etc) and wields a staff with a big rock (carved with tribal markings) tied to the end to turn it into a makeshift mace. He's quiet, never saying much but when he does, it (usually) is taken into account. He's smart in the ways of first aid, knowing various ways of healing herbs/pastes, setting broken bones, and the like. Constantly has a nightmare of a giant lizard (komodo dragon?) chasing him and keeps a pet mouse in his cave (or living quarters) that he talks to at night. The others think he's nuts for this but his wisdom is invaluable.

He isn't a leader, but he's far from spineless and will (politely) tell the tribe leader to fuck off if Fengo thinks he's wrong.

[nikohl]

Cool!

Do I take your mention of Caves to be that you're voting for Caves as the starting living quarters?

We've got the makings of a good tribe here you guys... Warriors, builders, hunters, gatherers, Witch Doctors and Cook-(future Seer)s... plus the addition of Badge's character and mine... (Edit: and Bean, when she's done creating!) I'm glad there's a nice mix

[BeanDip]

Okay the CT scan took some time and then I had trouble finding a function within the tribe that was unique, useful and allowed for some exploring. Finally just decided to go with what I got and hope it works well.

Name: Ril
Gender: Female
Age: 19 summers
Occupation: Fisher/Diver

Appearance:
Extremely thin with no curves and much shorter than average, she doesn't look very imposing but she's undoubtedly strong, her strength lying deep in wiry, well defined muscles. Her eyes are a light blue and seem to shimmer like water, her light brown hair is shoulder-length but constantly tied back into a small bun. Her skin is deeply tanned as a result of almost always being outside. Her facial features are long. She constantly carries a short flint knife in an otter-skin sheath on her hip.

Knowledge:
Ril's affinity for water is unmatched. She's knowledgeable about the water and the plants and animals living in and around it. She's a capable swimmer and if she's anywhere near water, she's sure to jump in. She can craft small nets or fish traps, and understands constructing and using fishing lines. She can hold her breath underwater for a long time and can dive to the river and lake bed to collect mollusks or other food and items. She can build a very basic raft given the materials and time but prefers the feeling of water wrapped around her rather than floating atop it.

Personality:
Ril believes in being flexible, strong and adaptable like the water she loves so much. She goes with the flow and accepts herself and the world around her easily, even as it changes and shifts around her. She believes that the universe is similarly in a constant shifting state. She seeks truth and believes in honesty in all circumstances. Unfortunately, her honesty can be unkind. She doesn't like it when people lie. She is cool, calm and friendly.

[nikohl]

Awesome! Where would your vote for the starting location be?

[BeanDip]

Forest, of course-est.

...it sort of rhymed...

[GathersIngredients]

Cool map.
So erm, if forest wins, will it be the one on the right-upper side of the map (possibly north-west, there is no wind rose...) or the little circular wooden area in the middle of the map, closer to the river?



So. XY summer or XY winters means that our char was born closer to summer/winter, or what is the difference there? (If I had to hazard a guess, I would figure that back then most people were probably born in fall. Because cuddling against the winter cold + 9 months. OTOH, having an extra mouth to feed through the winter is probably not ideal... Hrm.)

Also, how high is life expectancy within the people of the tribe? Iirc, in the stone-ages, people that lived to see their thirties were considered REALLY old.

Will post Min's age after getting my questions answered, thank you kindly in advance.

Erm, ok, so... can I get a reply to that summer/winter thingy, please?
Also, I think I'll settle for age of 16 for Min.

And with the river running directly next to the smaller forest area, it IS mighty tempting to change my vote. But caves are usually the first home to people who have none, all you need to do is keep them free from critters and light a fire. Everywhere else you need to build SOME kind of structure first, that will protect you from wind and precipitation etc. So I won't.

Which kind of reminds me: What kind of homes can our tribe build, if any at all? What technologies do we have already? Like pottery? Fire making? Sewing? What are our clothes made of? Do we have some kind of pins holding them together? What materials are readily available (and known) to us? (I think you might have answered that already, at least partially. Rocks and bones for weapons. But other stuff, like e.g. building materials? Cooking supplies, herbs, raw materials in general) What about food sources? What kind of tools and other equipment do we HAVE? What tools and other equipment and how to make them do we know about?
...

You get the gist.
If I am going to be an inventor or whatever, I need to know what is commonly known and what is 'left' to invent.

[nikohl]

I'm still not sure there's a difference between summers and winters old, and I think Badge is busy today. I am going to say it's semantics only, unless we hear otherwise.

As for what you have access to and what tech level you have - we just finalised a list of items that you start with, which I hope you all find useful and which should answer a bunch of your questions when it's posted up. But yes you know fire, sewing, basic pottery and such. You have no real source of metal and no concept of forging it or smithing, or mining for it, which is a major limitation on what you can and can't make. Clothes are made almost entirely from animal hides, skin, furs etc, sewn with sinew. Food sources are whatever you can hunt or gather. We will tell you about some obvious ones but you can "discover" whatever you like with the use of your Points ingame - eg we might tell you in our descriptions that there are elk in the plains and so on, but you might want to discover a rabbit in the forest, so you use your points and voila, rabbit. Within reason of course.

[BadgeAddict]

Okay, in answer to your question there gathers. I was simply using a Caveman-ish way to describe years, as they wouldn't know what a year is, they would most likely count the seasons or certain seasons (aka winter or summer). Technically the tribe should use one standard, so its fine to use whatever everyone else is using. Though as you said, babies born in winter may not make it....so if you would like to have a character have an interesting backstory because they were born in winter (meaning, they either almost didn't make it, or as a child they were made of tougher stuff to survive) then that is acceptable as well.

In answer to your other question, materials.....So, and i'll let nikohl agree or disagree here. For materials, we plan on laying out a map (description) with every resource that we can think of, and allow you to use it as you see fit. A lot of your questions will be answered in the opening details. However I think it is safe to say:

Spears, Knives, Slings and other simple weapons are available. Bows are not yet "invented" and i think we would like to see an incredible amount of creative writing to see the process of creating one. (to explain, this isn't simply a game of, using my modern day brain and knowing what things are, i want to create a windmill, we would like you to get into the mind of the caveman and try to see the world from his point of view, I don't mean ugg want food, grunt grunt. I mean, a caveman needs to see a problem and then try, using his surroundings to solve that problem. So, using your brain, you know what a bow is, but how does a cavemen dream up what a bow is, what process does he see or imagine in order to invent such a thing. Now, the mind of an inventor is an amazing thing, and im not saying it is impossible to "invent" a bow, just that we want to see alot of process to get there)

Basic stone tools exist; Stone Hammer, Stone Axe, bone tools, wooden tools...

Pottery does exist, though again, we expect that you make sure every detail is accounted for. One does not simply take clay, shape it and wham, a clay pot.

Fire can be created, however we would like you to use your imagination here.

Okay it may be easier to approach things this way:
The story will be most likely set in the "stone Age", with the use of bones being a thing also.

and again, i will reiterate, if caveman jones sees a problem and can come up with a solution, something could technically be invented. We may give hints at possible tech down the road, but for now we would like to see what you come up with.
Nikohl, please correct me if im wrong here.

Oh and, my lan game doesn't start for 2 more hours from now, fyi.

[nikohl]

Badge and I have agreed that while we wanted to keep the starting post secret until the game begins on Monday, I'm going to send out PMs to everybody detailing the items you start with, and post here a list of items that the NPC tribesfolk have brought with them. The reasons that you only have these items will become clear with the starting post, but I don't want to spoil the fun.

The items that you have are not secret, feel free to discuss them here (or later in the OOC thread that will be made) it's just they're "yours" hence me telling only you about them at this stage. Others will see them as you use them in-game anyway

So, look out for a PM from me detailing your items. If you truly hate something you've been given as a concept, PM us back and we'll discuss it.

[GathersIngredients]

Thanks for your answer so far. Both of you. =)

If we vote on whether we say summers or winters old in our tribe, I'd say winters. Not because people were born in that season, but because they died in that season, out of cold/hunger/resulting illness, etc. So it would make sense to say ... winters (old) because having come through the winter alive was quite an achievement back then.



On technology, mats:
I ask, because if you go into some museum that covers that time period, you will find that even small things - like 'safety pins' brooches, clasps or whatever they are called in English to hold your clothing together were quite a big deal back then to have. A valuable commodity, if you like. At first people didn't wear much more than tanned hides, stuck together around their bodies in SOME fashion, with whatever they had available. Cutting it to the right size might have happened quicker - knives or similar was available at the same time they had hides, because somehow they had to get the hide OFF the meat - but sewing and all that happened later. (but if you say we got sewing, I'm completely happy with that. Just wanted to explain where I was coming from.)
Shoes might have evolved from just some kind of sole that got attached to the foot somehow (not much more than a flip flop) designed to protect the foot sole from harm to something with a little more material to keep warm, too.

Hides themselves is something that isn't too easy to get in the first place. First you need an animal, that you are able to kill. Then you need to kill it without too much damage to the hide. Then you need to skin said hide from said animal (again, with the least damage possible). Then you need to scrape and clean the hide (and let it dry). Then you need to tan it (using either the animal's fat or something cooked up from tree bark and/or pee as tanning material). Then you need to let it 'rest' for a while. If you leave it too long or too short, it will rot. Then you need to wash off the tanning material and let it dry. Then you need to beat the hides (stiff as a board in that step of the process) between two hard surfaces (a big rock to lay it onto and a small rock as 'hammer') and stretch it until it is all soft again.
This is for getting FURS. If you want leather, you first need to soak the hide until all the hairs fall out or something, and then you proceed as described before.

Wood is another thing. I mean the question is always, what purpose do you need it for? If you want fire wood, you'll take practically any tree in any season, fell it, cut it up into pieces (watch out for the resin) store it until it's nice and dry and then you can use it in your oven or fire pit or whatever.
If you want wood to craft (tools, weapons, ...) or BUILD (e.g. homes, stockades, ...) with, that's a whole other story. The kind of tree matters. The season you cut the tree down in matters. The way the tree has grown matters. ... You get my point?

I'm no expert on this topic, though. And even if I was, I don't mean to lecture you, I just wanted to know where we are roughly (more or less what we got to work with), and I now wanted to explain why I was asking stuff.
Also, I dunno how complex you want to make this game on these issues, or if you are just going to say: "building a house needs XY trees." and be done with it. Either way is fine by me, I just want to know.



On food sources: What we find...
That's not very... significant. I mean there could be food sources that we don't know about, even though they are right under our noses. (e.g. subterran animals. Or roots. Mushrooms. Plant seeds. ...) Also, everything could be poisonous or otherwise harmful to us. Knowing what we can eat is essential. Or knowing how big an animal the hunter of the tribe can bring down IF they all work together. (Depends on the tribe size, used weaponry, tactics, like battue, pit traps, ...)
So basically, it would be nice if you could give us a little more information than 'what you can find'.

But I don't want to rush you or anything. If it is planned as content of the starting post, then I can wait until then.

And again: I don't want to go on anyones nerves with these questions/points that I bring up. I just want to be able to do a good job in describing what Min has/does/comes up with, and knowing as much about the world she lives in WILL help.